Is No One Else Disturbed by Attitudes Towards Handicapped?

LouC · 2019-10-10T12:19:37.640Z

Janet_Miller:

Iceland "Cures" Down Syndrome: Should America Do the Same? | Psychology Today

Seems many have forgotten uglier periods of history, such as the California Eugenics Project. Many Downs children, depending on the level of delay, are capable of contributing to family life, developing talents, and working some level job.

They won’t grow up to be engineers or physicians, but so what? How about those with more severe handicaps, such as autism on a higher end of the spectrum?

Should such individuals be sacrificed on the altar of “choice”, too? How about individuals with problems newer than Downs Syndrome, like microcephaly from zika?

Where does “choice” end? And why are handicapped individuals regarded as fungible?

Interesting and provocative topic!

Having worked in mental health facilities with folks with Down Syndrome from toddler age to senior citizens and others with other forms of retardation, mild to severe, many coupled with massive physical deformity from birth; I have been left with some very conflicting emotions and thinking on the topic.

Having myself been born with crippled feet that my doctor recognized at birth it becomes equally emotionally conflicting.

I must admit I have thought, “better off dead” not a few times, especially after interacting with those parents that were still around and still in contact with their children and seeing how gut wrenching each visit was for them.

I think I would not choose to end the life of a child of mine, in the womb, even if I knew what sort of diminished life they were destined to have, I think I would choose life, but I am not certain, especially knowing how terrible at times my life has been with my disability? There has not been a day in my life going back as far as I can remember that I haven’t been in severe pain. There hasn’t been a day in my life when I haven’t been sidelined from some “normal” activity because of my disability.

Then I think about all the wonderful and good things that were a part of my life despite the pain, despite being on the sideline.

As I said, interesting and provocative.

Janet_Miller · 2019-10-10T12:32:52.303Z

“I must admit I have thought “better off dead” not a few times”…

Me too as someone stuck with intermittently very painful migraines and, more recently, osteoarthritis. Would have had some expensive legal problems had I gone to work last night as the pain relief would have marked me an impaired driver.

However, the increase of prenatal genetics testing and idea of the handicapped being “choices” to be eliminated before they’ve had a chance at life and seeing what they CAN do I find disturbing.

Guvnah · 2019-10-10T12:36:41.498Z

Kelby:

Children can be tested for autism while still in the womb, so parents can decide whether or not to murder them ahead of time.

False.

The post right before yours show that they’re working on it.

And I saw Six’s post as a what-if to show where Iceland’s practices can lead. (Edit: I see subsequently that my take was not his intent though.)

You know… there are people already who elect abortion if the baby is the wrong sex. (Mostly aborting females. Yay feminism!) If the search for a gay gene were successful, do you doubt such an indicator would not be used in abortion decisions?

SixFoot · 2019-10-10T12:49:20.851Z

I mixed up DS with ASD earlier. There are tests for it at pre-birth, but not the tests I was thinking about, nor the tests that were done for all three of my children in the womb.

So, with that out of the way, parents can find out if it’s worth it or not for them to murder their babies before they’re born. Wouldn’t want to be inconvenienced with a kid with needs or anything.

Kelby · 2019-10-10T12:57:20.372Z

Guvnah:

Kelby:

Children can be tested for autism while still in the womb, so parents can decide whether or not to murder them ahead of time.

False.

The post right before yours show that they’re working on it.

And I saw Six’s post as a what-if to show where Iceland’s practices can lead. (Edit: I see subsequently that my take was not his intent though.)

You know… there are people already who elect abortion if the baby is the wrong sex. (Mostly aborting females. Yay feminism!) If the search for a gay gene were successful, do you doubt such an indicator would not be used in abortion decisions?

I doubt whether there will ever be discovered a “gay” or autism genetic marker because these conditions exist on a spectrum…it is not a binary issue like Down Syndrome, i.e., you either have it or you don’t.

No one is 100% gay or autistic, there is wide variability in the behaviors demonstrated.

Will they be able to assess for biological “risk” factors, perhaps. There are other more obvious epidemiological factors associated with autistic spectrum, such as family history. For example, if the father has ASD, there is a far increased chance for the child to have the disorder.

People choose to have abortions for a multitude of reasons, they always have. Some may be forgivable, some not, depending on your point of view.

LouC · 2019-10-10T12:58:38.155Z

Janet_Miller:

“I must admit I have thought “better off dead” not a few times”…

Me too as someone stuck with intermittently very painful migraines and, more recently, osteoarthritis. Would have had some expensive legal problems had I gone to work last night as the pain relief would have marked me an impaired driver.

However, the increase of prenatal genetics testing and idea of the handicapped being “choices” to be eliminated before they’ve had a chance at life and seeing what they CAN do I find disturbing.

I agree. But I have seen the other equally disturbing side, seeing what many could NOT do and would NEVER do. That is where my conflicted emotions and thinking came from. When there is existence, but no “life” and no chance ever at “life” would it not be kinder to not prolong that existence?

We put down our pets or work animals when they reach a point when they have no more “life” and we consider that a kindness?

Why do we treat our animals with greater kindness than our people?

There is also, which I had not mentioned earlier, my religious upbringing and my current beliefs and faiths in God and doubts, that all lead to even greater conflicted thinking.

SixFoot · 2019-10-10T13:00:22.778Z

LouC:

Why do we treat our animals with greater kindness than our people?

They don’t talk back. lol

Janet_Miller · 2019-10-10T13:01:42.505Z

American Pregnancy Association – 26 Apr 20

Alpha-Fetoprotein Test (AFP)

The Alpha-Fetoprotein Test (AFT) examines the level of alpha-fetoprotein in the mother's blood during pregnancy.

Est. reading time: 5 minutes

In spite of the prevalence and encouraging of this test on all pregnant women, it is strictly a screening that may indicate a “need” for more, some of it, invasive testing. Yikes!

Some pregnant women have elevated levels of HCG (evaluated in more recent versions of the test) because they are pregnant with more than one. Babies who actually have a neural tube defect, such as spina bifida, or chromosomal defect like Downs, are in the minority of births.

It’s rather creepy the amount of encouragement that is going into testing for problems that only affect a small percentage of the population. And elimination of any group, no matter how small a percentage of the population, should be setting off bells and whistles.

Janet_Miller · 2019-10-10T13:04:13.069Z

When did you guys have your third?

Boy or girl?

Congratulations!

SixFoot · 2019-10-10T13:06:15.347Z

Much appreciate! On May 25th, Theodore was inducted into our family name. His first birthday will be on Memorial Day Monday next year.

Happy Memorial Day Politics

It’s finally a Happy Memorial Day for me. A little ray of light on an otherwise dark day. [image]

Janet_Miller · 2019-10-10T13:11:36.712Z

…”seeing what many could NOT and would NEVER do…”

From anti death penalty to abortion rights, sometimes I wonder if I’m wrong. I remember reading of a Texas woman who, I believe successfully sued stating she wasn’t given full information to make an informed decision regarding pregnancy.

The problem wasn’t Downs Syndrome, but the woman’s contracting rubella during pregnancy. Rubella testing became part of MMR around 1971. The baby, a girl, was born in 1969.

This woman must be able to provide while alive and post mortem for an adult daughter who is totally helpless. She wasn’t given information about the full effects of rubella on an unborn, where, at that time, she might have been able to choose a medical abortion, so, IMO, her grounds for suing her obstetrician were correct.

As someone who leans towards life, from the womb to the tomb, I also feel zero tolerance = zero brainpower. There have always been and should be room for exceptions.

Janet_Miller · 2019-10-10T13:13:29.581Z

He’s adorable!

SixFoot · 2019-10-10T13:15:15.686Z

He’s, THEODORABLE!

Guvnah · 2019-10-10T16:35:33.869Z

Kelby:

I doubt whether there will ever be discovered a “gay” or autism genetic marker because these conditions exist on a spectrum…it is not a binary issue like Down Syndrome, i.e., you either have it or you don’t.

But male vs female is. And people already kill their own child for that.

As new markers (such as Down Syndrome) are discovered, they’ll be used the same way.

“Point of view” is a sinister justification for that.

Safiel · 2019-10-10T18:09:54.034Z

There are no bright lines, no black and white, but only endless shades of grey on this issue.

Some in my family (mother’s side) carry the gene for a lethal allele. The gene, if active causes a massive heart deformity that is 100% fatal. Death usually occurs in the final month of gestation, but occasional as a stillbirth and sometimes the fetus survives the birth and lives for a day or so.

Fortunately, this can now be screened for very early on and the pregnancy can be terminated. In this case, you are merely speeding up what is bound to happen anyway and sparing the mother the anguish (and danger) of a term pregnancy only to lose the child at or near birth.

In the case of lethal alleles, screening out these pregnancies is justified, particularly as the fetus is already, by definition, doomed.

Blackwolf · 2019-10-10T18:13:22.007Z

Well thought-out post that expresses personal experience with the subject and how it’s impossible to view it in black and white terms. Thank you.

Janet_Miller · 2019-10-10T18:36:29.208Z

Same with anancephaly

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention – 28 Jun 23

Facts about Anencephaly | CDC

Anencephaly (pronounced an-en-sef-uh-lee) is a serious birth defect in which a baby is born without parts of the brain and skull.

Same with Tay Sachs disease, largely present in Ashkenazi Jewish populations as well as French Canadian. Babies who receive a gene from both parents for this die early in childhood.

I’m perplexed by intentionally targeting babies with Downs Syndrome, though. This isn’t a new disorder.

It is survivable, with an average of 60 being lived by many since they are no longer cared for in institutions. There are support systems for such families, including through this lady

Joni and Friends | Sharing Hope Through Hardship – 2 Jan 23

Joni and Friends | Sharing Hope Through Hardship

Joni and Friends envisions a world where every person with a disability finds hope, dignity, and their place in the body of Christ.

who also has offices in other parts of the U S, home base being California.

Why intentionally target what isn’t perfect, but, unlike lethal alleles, survivable?

Blackwolf · 2019-10-10T18:54:38.188Z

Janet_Miller:

Why intentionally target what isn’t perfect, but, unlike lethal alleles, survivable?

In regards to Iceland and Down’s Syndrome my assumption was that perhaps it was a cultural rather than state issue - the government doesn’t mandate abortions for it, doesn’t even mandate testing for it in the first place. So why are Icelanders choosing to have abortions after positive tests?

What little googling I did showed that DS is not, in fact, nearly eradicated in Iceland - actually it’s only 10% less than in other European countries. Iceland has a higher rate of abortion in general than other Nordic countries, a fact attributed in part to limited sex education there as well as less effective use of contraception.

Prenatal testing for DS exists nearly everywhere in first world countries, but Icelandic women abort after a positive test nearly 100% of the time - why? Some sources say it’s the result of heavy handed genetic counseling, if that’s true easy to assume there’s a state influence at play. So yeah, still not sure myself without further reading.

(For the record? In the US a positive test for DS results in abortion 67% of the time. The rates are much higher in European nations.)

Excast · 2019-10-10T19:15:10.830Z

There is nothing inherently noble about being forced to bring a life into this world that will be brief, painful, and filled with complications for both the child and it’s family. Nobody is saying that people with Down’s Syndrome are bad or should be treated in any way like lesser human beings, but the reality is that their condition often requires a lifetime of care that prevents true independence. A family has every right to be made fully aware of that and to make the decision as to if they want that to be their future or not.

Guvnah · 2019-10-10T19:50:06.409Z

Janet_Miller:

Why intentionally target what isn’t perfect, but, unlike lethal alleles, survivable?

Or even what IS perfect, like two X chromosomes.

We’ve enshrined the right to one decision in law, so culling the next trait becomes even easier.