I agree. God accepts a person as he is, and where he is. That is the way we are to accept others. “In a word, accept one another as Christ accepted us to the glory of God.” Romans 15:7
What do you mean by silly little quotes from silly religious sources that have zero authority in this world?
It means exactly what it means. Scripture has no authority on truth, history, or who gets to go back Home to our Father when our Higher Self sheds the Ego. None whatsoever.
To appeal to that kind of authority is to really miss out on spiritual growth. There are no experts on the meaning of life, or the afterlife. Not a single one.
Today’s Christians put gayness at the top of the pyramid of sins. At least they act that way. Ignoring the adulterers who surround them at church. God did not put gayness in his top ten of sins. But adultery is there. Jesus barely mentioned gayness at all. If he ever did. Yet saving gays from their gayness seems to be a top priority of today’s Christians. Not exactly on topic. But still a legit philosophical question.
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I believe all are children of God, but many reject the inheritance offered them.
A “gospel” of vengeance and punishment is rarely a successful invitation to conversion.
I like to look to Acts 2:14+ (Peter speaking to the crowd after the Descent of the Holy Spirit.)
“Look guys. This is what God has in store for you! Here are his promises! Don’t blow it!”
And they asked him what they should do.
And Peter replied: “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)
Peter went with the Good News. (And that’s the actual meaning of the Greek word, Gospel. Good News.) It attracted many people.
I think when Jesus said “your father the devil”, he was talking about their choice of father. He was always calling anyone and everyone to conversion. The parable of the Lost Sheep tells us that conversion is celebrated in Heaven.
All that said, I have no doubt that there will always be people who choose Hell. They just will.
There are some Christians who do that. The Westboro Baptists come to mind. IMO, they give the rest of us Baptists, and Christians in general a bad name.
I absolutely agree that not just Christians, but people in general are great at pointing out the sins of others, but not so quick to recognize their own, and yes I believe all churches have hypocrites in them, and every other sin.
I don’t believe gayness is different then any other sin, that is in terms of going to Hell. Every sin condemns us equally to Hell. But by the same reasoning, no sin is too great to be delivered from either. You may rightfully argue that while too many “Christians” focus on delivering gay people from gayness, it’s also true that most gays do not want to accept that it’s even possible to be delivered from being gay and so they dig in their heels and say "that’s just the way I am! With God all things are possible, if that’s not true, then God isn’t God. I don’t believe it would be fair of God to call us to repentance if it wasn’t possible- but there’s the catch, it’s not possible in our own power. Scripture says without Him we can do nothing, but Paul said I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me…
I agree with this perspective Guv. But if we are called to repentance and that meaning from sin, it’s seems it would only be right to let people know what sin is.
Here’s a question: How can you love someone you don’t know and never met? Knowing OF Jesus is not the same thing as knowing Jesus. And you can’t really know someone until you choose to spend time with them and get to know them. But since Jesus does not force anyone to accept him, it must be a conscious choice to do so. That choice is the begining of our walk with him.
Some, perhaps many, perhaps most (and I don’t know how you could measure) will be attracted to the message of love, but don’t discount the motivation of fear. Even Jesus said in Matt. 10:28. “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
To many, it’s a sobering thought to read these words from a loving savior. The reality of Hell hits home. I didn’t know Jesus, but I sure wanted no part of Hell. I’ve heard many people say the same thing.
If you tell a child not to stick their hand in the fire or not to play in the street, is it a message of hate or love?
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The only true sins are those perpetrated against others.
Few things are more evil than someone trying to “save” you from your actions that aren’t even harming other humans.
I say this as someone who isn’t convinced that anyone is born gay.
Well that’s the next step after someone chooses to turn to God. Just like the people asked Peter, “What should we do?” He said, get baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. The grace from that step opens the door to the convert asking the next question. And the next.
The flip side is to start off telling someone he’s a sinner and is going to hell, so convert to avoid going to hell… It’s not likely to invite the person, nor to encourage him to seek deeper.
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And that is not “radical.” Cause and Effect is not “radical.” Telling “children” not to burn their hand by sticking it into fire, is love not hate. Some might think they are immune to cause and effect and burn their hand anyway. Some wouldn’t even learn no matter how obvious it is. There are those who insist they can do as they want and are lost in identity and selfness, “I,” “Me,” “others” and compulsively wish, to ignore cause and effect and would call the protective parent a liar trying to control them.
In the root language that transcends worldly language and time, the True “scriptures,” engraved in the Akasa—these people are called, icchantika, “People of Incorrigible Disbelief.”. But even “they” will learn to “read” and listen as cause and effect works it’s expedient means.
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My grandfather used to have a saying: If you don’t want to listen, you’re gonna have to feel.
It applied to his belt, but applies the same to hands in fire.
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Man, I hope I don’t jinx this, but this is the most interesting thread on religion in a long time around here.
We are approaching from a different direction…I quoted Jesus talking about Hell. Clearly then, Hell is a real place. In Romans 6:23 we read THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Notice what is mentioned first. This is not talking about the death of our mortal body, but the second death which is described in Revelation.
I don’t agree with Six on his beliefs about the authority of scripture, but he did nail the issue of our pride. If we can’t admit we are sinners to begin with, then how can we repent. Before people seek a remedy for anything, they must first recognize their need. This is a universal truth. Think of the adulteress in Proverbs. She wipes her mouth and says see, I have done nothing wrong.
I don’t just WANT a savior. I NEED a savior. He is the only one who can pay my debt besides me, but I must choose to allow that payment to be credited on my behalf. If I have no debt, why do I need someone to pay it for me?
We have different beliefs on receiving the Holy Spirit. I believe he is received when I accepted Jesus as my Savior. Baptism didn’t send him to me, baptism was the outward sign of the inward acceptance of and identification with Christ. It is an act of obedience that symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
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People are by nature very stubborn. One scripture I keep in the back of mind in the Old Testament sums up our nature very well, it is " The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it" The problem is our pride. Too many people consider themselves to be " good" We each want to set ourselves up against a human standard but we are not the standard, Jesus is and we humans all fall short.
Ultimately Guv, that applies to repentance too. listen to Jesus when he says " except ye repent…" or feel Hell for yourself. Being an uncomfortable subject doesn’t make it not true.
How do you know that? Define sin. Is the sacrifice for sins not a once for all time offering?
When we die, the only sins that are gonna matter are the ones we committed, and it’s going to be hell forgiving ourselves of such atrocious decisions during that transition.
Our Father will be there, on the other end, with all the love.
As Guv rightly said, many will choose Hell. Jesus’ death on the cross paid the sin debt, but if it was granted to everyone automatically then that would be a form of tyranny. That was basically the accusation Satan made against God. God gives a standard then condemns everyone because they can’t keep it. Jesus proved that accusation wrong by keeping the standard perfectly, that’s why ONLY HE can pay the debt, but forcing people to accept that payment who didn’t ask or want it is still force. What God wants is for us to FREELY accept him, but again, why would we accept him if we didn’t need him? And how can he forgive us if we can’t swallow our pride and admit we have something that needs forgiven- our sin…
There are several definitions of sin in scripture l. I will provide some shortly…
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Romans 14:23-23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Here’s three things listed as sin…
