Is another big steal imminent?

[Optrader]

[quote=“Snowfinch, post:68, topic:241363, full:true”]

@Optrader

@Snowfinch

@FlameHeart

A cashless economy will disable bartering and capitalism
[/quote]

Lack of a physical representation of currency does not disable capitalism.

The majority of capital transactions are disconnected from any physical representation of capital. It’s ledgers and contracts. Same as it would be in an “all digital” scheme.

So the 12 year old neighbor kid who mows his neighbors lawns, shovels their snow, washed their cars and other odd jobs to make money wouldn’t be affected if cash was gone?

And none of you guys are getting the point.
WHAT WILL CASH BE REPLACED WITH? HOW WILL ITS VALUE BE DETERMINED IN RELATION TO YOUR LABOR?

I didn’t say no effect. I said it would not “disable capitalism”. The kid in your example would be inconvenienced significantly by either maintaining a digital banking account or bartering his services with an intrinsically valuable commodity.

We are talking about prospective systems, but eliminating physical cash simply in exchange for a digitally represented currency would have no effect on valuation of the dollar. Just as the current value of the dollar is not determined by the presence of or amount of physical currency in the system.

So to that end the dollar could be valued the same as it is today.

Edit: could go unstated, but distaste for all-digital currency could lower the value of the dollar. But that is determined by human emotion, and not inherent to the “digitalness” of the system.

So a 12 year old will have to maintain a digital account to mow yards? You guys are the ones that maintain adult minorities can’t get valid IDs to vote but a 12 year old can just get one to mow yards🤔. Or barter his labor for an intrinsically valuable commodity? Such as??

You continue to misunderstand. The dollar is gone. There is no valuation. It is no longer a legal means to engage in commerce. All financial transactions are done with online digital currency. Your dollars were exchanged for whatever is used as their replacement but not one for one because the government has revalued the dollar just prior to the exchange and declares you will only get 60% of what your dollars were worth. This is about what they did in 1933 when the government confiscated all your gold. They gave you 20.00 an ounce then immediately revalued it to 35.00 an ounce. The government will do the same thing when they go to digital currency. It will be worth what the government says it is.

[Happyhappyjoyjoy]

America is weirdly backwards when it comes to cashless transactions.

Got to Sweden, for example, where taxis simply wont take cash and even the homeless guy on the street takes contactless card donations.

The cashless society – Sweden leads the way | sweden.se

I’ve had the same £10 note in my wallet for over a year now, can’t think when I will use it next but it’s nice to have just in case.

[Paul_Thomson]

@Snowfinch

Just as the current value of the dollar is not determined by the presence of or amount of physical currency in the system.

That’s not true, is it?

[Snowfinch]

@Optrader

So a 12 year old will have to maintain a digital account to mow yards? You guys are the ones that maintain adult minorities can’t get valid IDs to vote but a 12 year old can just get one to mow yards🤔. Or barter his labor for an intrinsically valuable commodity? Such as??

I am not a “you guys” nor am I arguing for digital currency. I’m just commenting about what it might look like.

@Optrader

You continue to misunderstand. The dollar is gone. There is no valuation. It is no longer a legal means to engage in commerce. All financial transactions are done with online digital currency. Your dollars were exchanged for whatever is used as their replacement but not one for one because the government has revalued the dollar just prior to the exchange and declares you will only get 60% of what your dollars were worth. This is about what they did in 1933 when the government confiscated all your gold. They gave you 20.00 an ounce then immediately revalued it to 35.00 an ounce. The government will do the same thing when they go to digital currency. It will be worth what the government says it is.

My comments have all been about the intrinsic nature of digital vs physical dollars. When you add these particulars… like making you trade in dollars for whatever these things are at a loss…. you are building in results that are not intrinsic to digital money. Also, the government does not directly value the dollar… it’s value it determined by exchange markets. To the extent that the government can alter the value via policy… it can do it with physical cash as easy as digital cash.

The things you are predicting can be done with physical money as well as digital. We are beholden to the policy of the government and the behavior of society at large to maintain the value of physical dollars.

In one sense you are correct… I don’t get why a digital fiat currency will be valued differently than a physical fiat currency with floating valuation. Already the bulk of “dollars” do not exist physically and are transacted digitally.

[zantax]

@Optrader

@Snowfinch

@FlameHeart

A cashless economy will disable bartering and capitalism

Lack of a physical representation of currency does not disable capitalism.

The majority of capital transactions are disconnected from any physical representation of capital. It’s ledgers and contracts. Same as it would be in an “all digital” scheme.

So the 12 year old neighbor kid who mows his neighbors lawns, shovels their snow, washed their cars and other odd jobs to make money wouldn’t be affected if cash was gone?

And none of you guys are getting the point.
WHAT WILL CASH BE REPLACED WITH? HOW WILL ITS VALUE BE DETERMINED IN RELATION TO YOUR LABOR?

Under the current admin? Equitably.

[Snowfinch]

@Paul_Thomson

@Snowfinch

Just as the current value of the dollar is not determined by the presence of or amount of physical currency in the system.

That’s not true, is it?

The value of the dollar floats and is determined by open trading in a free market.

The majority of money held in “dollars” is not physical. We only need enough physical currency to support transactions that require it.

The Federal reserve increases the money supply without printing dollars … well printing enough dollars to satisfy the needs for them, but largely implementing supply changes digitally.

[Paul_Thomson]

[quote=“Snowfinch, post:86, topic:241363, full:true”]

@Paul_Thomson

@Snowfinch

Just as the current value of the dollar is not determined by the presence of or amount of physical currency in the system.
[/quote]

That’s not true, is it?

The value of the dollar floats and is determined by open trading in a free market.

The majority of money held in “dollars” is not physical. We only need enough physical currency to support transactions that require it.

The Federal reserve increases the money supply without printing dollars … well printing enough dollars to satisfy the needs for them, but largely implementing supply changes digitally.

Hasn’t printing more money recently forced up inflation and devalued the worth of the dollar?

[Snowfinch]

@Paul_Thomson

Hasn’t printing more money recently forced up inflation and devalued the worth of the dollar?

Creating money is not the same as printing. Money is created without making physical dollars.

The total number of physical dollars globally is only a few trillion total.

So in your example the number of physical dollars created (if any) is not important it’s the number of dollars created. And those are almost all digital… or whatever name we want to give to money in a deposit fund that has no physical artifact associated with it.

[Paul_Thomson]

@Snowfinch

Creating money is not the same as printing. Money is created without making physical dollars.

The total number of physical dollars globally is only a few trillion total.

So in your example the number of physical dollars created (if any) is not important it’s the number of dollars created. And those are almost all digital… or whatever name we want to give to money in a deposit fund that has no physica

Why is counterfeit money a problem then?

[Rurudyne]

Only banks and government get to float funny money from (and to) nothing.

[Snowfinch]

@Paul_Thomson

Why is counterfeit money a problem then?

Great counter example.

Although there are additional problems with counterfeit money beyond the increase in number of dollars. I think the main one is that it is in fact not money and therefore not reliable (it can be confiscated) which erodes trust in the dollar. The other is that it often places the money to the advantage of hostile nation.

As a concession I agree that it is not impossible for the amount of physical money to impact valuation… it is just not the main one.

counter to the counter: currency counterfeiting is possible because we have physical dollars. A secure digital currency could eliminate that problem.

Although my desire is for physical cash to remain.

[Paul_Thomson]

@Snowfinch

counter to the counter: currency counterfeiting is possible because we have physical dollars. A secure digital currency could eliminate that problem.

But digital money can be more easily produced out of thin ether, and dissolved into thin ether, or transferred to someone else without my sayso or knowledge.

[Snowfinch]

@Paul_Thomson

@Snowfinch

counter to the counter: currency counterfeiting is possible because we have physical dollars. A secure digital currency could eliminate that problem.

But digital money can be more easily produced out of thin ether, and dissolved into thin ether, or transferred to someone else without my sayso or knowledge.

Same with dollars… that are mostly digital.

Some digital currency (blockchain based) is much harder (claimed impossible) to alter than the current fiat currencies. That’s part of the buzz. That’s the reason people are attracted to them as currency.

Time will tell what happens with them.

[zantax]

@Snowfinch

@Paul_Thomson

@Snowfinch

counter to the counter: currency counterfeiting is possible because we have physical dollars. A secure digital currency could eliminate that problem.

But digital money can be more easily produced out of thin ether, and dissolved into thin ether, or transferred to someone else without my sayso or knowledge.

Same with dollars… that are mostly digital.

Some digital currency (blockchain based) is much harder (claimed impossible) to alter than the current fiat currencies. That’s part of the buzz. That’s the reason people are attracted to them as currency.

Time will tell what happens with them.

I can tell you what will happen. Government will crush them out of existence. Otherwise their own currencies will go extinct.

from https://bitcoinmagazine.com/markets/biden-administration-to-regulate-bitcoin-as-a-matter-of-national-security-report

The Biden administration will release an executive order in the coming weeks to task federal agencies with assessing the risks and opportunities that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies pose, Bloomberg first reported.

The order is set to come under the umbrella of national security efforts as the administration seeks to analyze cryptocurrencies and employ a cohesive regulatory framework that would cover Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, stablecoins, and NFTs, Barron’s reported Thursday.

[Borgia_dude]

@Dem

@Optrader

gold standard.

What’s up with people and complaining about the gold standard. There is no intrinsic value in gold. It only had value, because we said it had value.

Trading gold as means to purchase goods is no different than when people traded see shells.

Peoples who used rice as currency made more sense than using gold.

Yeah. I’ve never understood the desire to hoard gold anticipating an apocalypse. If it truly were an apocalyptic event, what value is gold? You can’t eat it. It won’t heal you. It isn’t used to manufacture anything helpful. I understand it’s value through history as a medium of exchange but I don’t think that would continue in true apocalyptic scenarios. Perhaps it would in less apocalyptic disaster scenarios though.

[Paul_Thomson]

@Borgia_dude

Yeah. I’ve never understood the desire to hoard gold anticipating an apocalypse. If it truly were an apocalyptic event, what value is gold? You can’t eat it. It won’t heal you. It isn’t used to manufacture anything helpful. I understand it’s value through history as a medium of exchange but I don’t think that would continue in true apocalyptic scenarios. Perhaps it would in less apocalyptic disaster scenarios though.

I agree with my Master’s advice…
“Store up treasure in heaven, where moth and rust do not consume and thieves cannot break in and steal.”

[zantax]

@Borgia_dude

@Dem

@Optrader

gold standard.

What’s up with people and complaining about the gold standard. There is no intrinsic value in gold. It only had value, because we said it had value.

Trading gold as means to purchase goods is no different than when people traded see shells.

Peoples who used rice as currency made more sense than using gold.

Yeah. I’ve never understood the desire to hoard gold anticipating an apocalypse. If it truly were an apocalyptic event, what value is gold? You can’t eat it. It won’t heal you. It isn’t used to manufacture anything helpful. I understand it’s value through history as a medium of exchange but I don’t think that would continue in true apocalyptic scenarios. Perhaps it would in less apocalyptic disaster scenarios though.

Depends if you are talking about depression era or Mad Max level events.

[Borgia_dude]

@zantax

Depends if you are talking about depression era or Mad Max level events.

True. Gold is valuable in the former, not so much in the latter.

[Kelby]

@CanadianJudo

Majority of wealth in the world doesn’t exist in “Cash”

Buy gold!

[Cratic3947]

Thank god for cryptocurrencies. And you would think the dems would want to get rid of the Fed since it was put in place by the real racist Woodrow Wilson.