If NATO membership for Ukraine was a known bright red line for Russia, why did Biden promote it?

[Bill.in.PA]

There are no obvious plans to move nuclear weapons into Ukraine, but the US has nuclear weapons on its military bases in other NATO countries. France and the UK have their own nuclear weapons as well.

The United States and its NATO allies do not disclose exact figures for its European-deployed stockpiles. In 2021, it is estimated that there are 100 U.S.-owned nuclear weapons stored in five NATO member states across six bases: Kleine Brogel in Belgium, Büchel Air Base in Germany, Aviano and Ghedi Air Bases in Italy, Volkel Air Base in the Netherlands, and Incirlik in Turkey.
Fact Sheet: U.S. Nuclear Weapons in Europe - Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation

[FreeAndClear]

@Ben_Natuf

nope, just the eu. nato was a non factor. putin had it within his power to prevent nato membership indefinitely by basically doing nothing more than he was already doing. he couldn’t stop the eu

I am not disagreeing. I am saying it doesn’t matter whether it’s E.U. or nato. Either one. Sure if it’s E.U. it’s E.U. it’s against whatever shift westward by Ukraine.

[JayJay]

Yes they do.

And?

[WuWei]

It’s not imperialism

[WuWei]

@JayJay

You misunderstood my point.

I was making a practical point, not a moral one.

As a practical matter, the US and NATO are not a military threat to Russia proper because of nuclear weapons.

Not true.

[WuWei]

@Jezcoe

autocrat

What?!

[Ben_Natuf]

it matters a lot. the eu is expansionary. russia has reason to fear it. the eu can bury russia. eventually the eu will morph into more than an economic union and the eu will be aggressive. nato is a defensive alliance, it has expanded, but its not expansionary. it does not seek to expand and its rules actually make it difficult. russia knows nato will never initiate a conflict with them, and had it within their power to prevent ukraine from ever joining nato simply by manipulating the situation in ukraine with regard to nato rules for admission.

[JayJay]

@WuWei

@JayJay

You misunderstood my point.

I was making a practical point, not a moral one.

As a practical matter, the US and NATO are not a military threat to Russia proper because of nuclear weapons.

Not true.

Of course it’s true.

The West will never attack Russia because of Russia’s nuclear weapons.

Unless some development allows us to be 100% safe from their nukes.

Which will never happen.

[zantax]

@Jezcoe

@Bill.in.PA

@Bill.in.PA

Here is a link to a 2015 study from the University of Ottawa that evaluated available videos, eyewitnesses, ballistics data, and other information about the shooting of Euromaidan protestors in 2014.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers’_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine

If they overthrew one elected government, they can overthrow another.

Seats in the parliament are not important.

That still did not answer my question.

We are talking about Neo NAZIs and Right Sector.

What power does Right Sector wield in Ukraine?

What would you say about a southern state that had a KKK unit integrated into its national guard?

[zantax]

@JayJay

@WuWei

@JayJay

You misunderstood my point.

I was making a practical point, not a moral one.

As a practical matter, the US and NATO are not a military threat to Russia proper because of nuclear weapons.

Not true.

Of course it’s true.

The West will never attack Russia because of Russia’s nuclear weapons.

Unless some development allows us to be 100% safe from their nukes.

Which will never happen.

We are attacking them right now. Economically.

[zantax]

@Bill.in.PA

The US had plenty of nuclear weapons in 1962. Does that mean Kennedy should have been fine with the Soviets turning Cuba into a missile base?

In criminal law pointing a gun at someone is considered aggravated assault or a similar crime.

International law is not so clear, but recklessly and needlessly threatening another country is likely to result in a war.

The real question is why would Biden promote NATO membership for Ukraine if he knew it was likely to trigger war with Russia? Where is the US national interest in that?

https://www.multinationalmonitor.org/mm1998/031998/hartung.html

There ya go.

[Bill.in.PA]

There are already plenty of people who have been pushing NATO attacks on Russian forces in Ukraine. For example, consider these options included in a Fox New opinion piece before the invasion, and the fact a shooting war with Russi could easily escalate to nuclear weapons is not even mentioned.

Neutralize Russian air defenses.

Authorize Ukraine’s forces to call in U.S. and/or NATO airstrikes on Russian tanks, artillery and other military assets.

Biden's 6 instant decisions if Russia invades Ukraine

[Jezcoe]

@zantax

@Jezcoe

@Bill.in.PA

@Bill.in.PA

Here is a link to a 2015 study from the University of Ottawa that evaluated available videos, eyewitnesses, ballistics data, and other information about the shooting of Euromaidan protestors in 2014.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers’_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine

If they overthrew one elected government, they can overthrow another.

Seats in the parliament are not important.

That still did not answer my question.

We are talking about Neo NAZIs and Right Sector.

What power does Right Sector wield in Ukraine?

What would you say about a southern state that had a KKK unit integrated into its national guard?

It would be bad. Just as Azov Battalion are a bunch of neo Nazi ■■■■■■■■■

That is a separate issue from Jimmy Dore arguing that the Maidan uprising was a Neo Nazi backed coup against … checks notes… Yanukovych

[zantax]

@Jezcoe

@zantax

@Jezcoe

@Bill.in.PA

@Bill.in.PA

Here is a link to a 2015 study from the University of Ottawa that evaluated available videos, eyewitnesses, ballistics data, and other information about the shooting of Euromaidan protestors in 2014.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266855828_The_Snipers’_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine

If they overthrew one elected government, they can overthrow another.

Seats in the parliament are not important.

That still did not answer my question.

We are talking about Neo NAZIs and Right Sector.

What power does Right Sector wield in Ukraine?

What would you say about a southern state that had a KKK unit integrated into its national guard?

It would be bad. Just as Azov Battalion are a bunch of neo Nazi ■■■■■■■■■

That is a separate issue from Jimmy Dore arguing that the Maidan uprising was a Neo Nazi backed coup against … checks notes… Yanukovych

You would call the entire state racist white supremacists.

[Jezcoe]

@zantax

You would call the entire state racist white supremacists.

Nope. Not really my style.

[zantax]

@Jezcoe

@zantax

You would call the entire state racist white supremacists.

Nope. Not really my style.

Please.

[WuWei]

@JayJay

@WuWei

@JayJay

You misunderstood my point.

I was making a practical point, not a moral one.

As a practical matter, the US and NATO are not a military threat to Russia proper because of nuclear weapons.

Not true.

Of course it’s true.

The West will never attack Russia because of Russia’s nuclear weapons.

Unless some development allows us to be 100% safe from their nukes.

Which will never happen.

MAD depends on that very threat. Don’t pretend you can predict the future.

You are also projecting your context onto the Russian psyche.

[Bill.in.PA]

It is no secret that far-right paramilitary groups are fighting for Ukraine. The details of who is funding them are not clear, but the US has a long-history of supporting far-right groups in Ukraine going back the support for the UPA against the Soviet Union after World War II.

Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine

[Jezcoe]

@Bill.in.PA

It is no secret that far-right paramilitary groups are fighting for Ukraine. The details of who is funding them are not clear, but the US has a long-history of supporting far-right groups in Ukraine going back the support for the UPA against the Soviet Union after World War II.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy910FG46C4

No one denies the existence of the Azov Battalion.

Their political arm is non existent.

There is no Neo Nazi representation in the Ukrainian Parliament and the head of State is Jewish.

[FreeAndClear]

@Jezcoe

@Bill.in.PA

It is no secret that far-right paramilitary groups are fighting for Ukraine. The details of who is funding them are not clear, but the US has a long-history of supporting far-right groups in Ukraine going back the support for the UPA against the Soviet Union after World War II.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy910FG46C4

No one denies the existence of the Azov Battalion.

Their political arm is non existent.

There is no Neo Nazi representation in the Ukrainian Parliament and the head of State is Jewish.

And this is where the line is interesting. No the ukranian government is not neo nazi but unfortunately given Donbass they are doing a bit more than say turning a blind eye. they really did let them loose in Donbass. That is of course a disputed area and the Russians did have forces there but the ukranian government is arming them and was arming them. That is power. Political power too since they are being armed by politicians.

That has to be a acknowledged even if in no way shape or form do i believe that this supports the Russian incursion or that Russian propaganda about denazification of Ukraine is anything but.