If God loves us unconditionally, why does he kill us instead of curing us?


There is one phrase that has always bugged me…

There but for the grace of God go I

Do you guys realize what that really means for a ton of people?


I wish more people actually meant it when they said it.

Many people who say it…don’t believe it.


Interesting thought. Seems like no matter what there is rebellion against God. And God ALWAYS blames us. Not much humility in that picture.


Additionally, the spirit is stronger than the flesh, yet these spiritual beings, in heaven, still rebelled. Wut.


What happens in these discussions? Is anyone’s heart softened? Or, is all that happens is that we harden the hearts to stand by their own original decisions? Think of it as God telling His people, “I’ll do everything I can to convince Pharaoh; he will see the reasonableness of what I ask; but in the end it will simply end up with me hardening Pharaoh’s heart.”

In all our discussions, have I softened your heart at all? :sunny:


As the story goes, their rebellion was over God’s creation of mankind. The original rebellion was not over doing evil, but whether mankind should even come into existence. It appears we caused trouble from the very beginning. Are we worth it?


Its our fault that angels rebelled because they didnt think God should create us? Wowzers. Nothing is ever God’s fault. Btw, you didnt address adroits post.


Can someone explain to me what this is supposed to mean?


This doesn’t make the story more logical, nor deal with the issue that two times, beings with direct access to God and living in Paradise rebelled against God’s commands/decisions.

Yet we’re to have faith the third time will be different.


It amazes me that you guys are proof of free will, yet you deny it and even get angry at the very concept.

The fact that people don’t believe in God is the proof he doesn’t force people to believe. On the other hand, if you don’t believe in God, then you can’t possibly ascribe your non belief in him to him either. That would be like me saying I don’t believe in the tooth fairy because the tooth fairy had instilled unbelief in me. A non existent being can not force you to do or believe anything, or not, so you must ascribe your unbelief (again) as your own free will choice.

It seems that what you are trying to do is to get Christians convinced that God has chosen some to be saved and some to be lost. Thank you Mr. Calvin, I reject that idea as unbiblical.

If this were true, then the very fact that you recognize this situation demonstrates you really do believe in God after all. Which is it? Is God real or not?

We rebel by choice… Always. Lucifer CHOSE to rebel in the full presence of and with full knowledge of God’s existence. You haven’t had the experience of standing in God’s presence. New Testament Christians are to walk by faith which is “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” In the Old Testament, they walked by sight. They saw God and the miracles he did, and many still didn’t believe. This is exactly what Jesus said- even if you saw, you still wouldn’t believe.

All Christians are unbelievers, until they’re not. You have the same evidence that we did before we accepted the truth. Maybe you haven’t discovered the truth because you really aren’t interested in looking.


We have Free Will. Remember? You ever read the Bible? It is pretty straight forward in the rules to live by in order to be happy. Covers everything from eating to how to heal certain illnesses. You don’t want to follow the rules then you pay with your health and in many other ways. The Bible is not for those times but for all times.

You and others have only themselves to blame for their unhappiness or for illnesses they bring on themselves. I am an RN for over 30 years. I have seen lots of death from accidents and diseases. I also served in two wars as an Army Combat Support nurse, those who have faith fair far better through all illnesses and even war. Those who have no faith don’t fair well.

The “I AM” is and will be and always has been. This world too complicated and the universe to have just happened on it’s own. Your choice.


This is not an answer to the post I made to Meri. Her post, and my response, were not a discussion about free will.

She said evil was not possible in heaven…yet Satan and his angels rebelled against God.

She of course then attempted later to parse what “evil” actually was so as to try and handle this contradiction to what she said.

Disobeying God is many times in the Bible cast as a sin and evil.

So it appears evil is indeed possible in heaven.


Everyone can see and understand that the sun can have a different effect on certain items. It can melt ice cream, evaporate water, harden clay, make things grow. The sun remains the same, but the items that come in contact with the sun react differently to it. The same with God. Some hearts react one way to God, others react in a different way. Same God, different hearts.


Paul in Romans tacitly denies this “passive” interpretation of what was going on in Exodus. He plainly states that God actively hardened Pharoah’s heart…and also explained why he did so.

“For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.’ Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.”

In the same passage he clearly states it’s not the place of the “clay pots” (humans) to question the “potter” (God).

If God predestined some of the “pots” for glory and others for destruction, that is entirely God’s affair.


Scripture says Lucifer was created perfect until iniquity was found in him. The rebels were kicked out of heaven, and I tend to believe that Christ would have pleaded greatly with them to change their path before they were kicked out.

We will not just be given new bodies, but a new nature in heaven, and there will be no Lucifer to tempt us and sow rebellion.


So you are agreeing with me that evil is indeed possible in heaven.

Thank you for your honesty!


So god is not all powerful?


Not in the way people seem to want. Ever been in a situation where people have had to choose not to use all the power of which they are capable? Ever have to judge how much power to apply?

I think it may be best for people to think of God as powerless. Perhaps they might serve Him better in that mind frame.


Well at least we’ve put to bed the false notion that evil is not possible in heaven.

That’s progress…


Huh? Thats not what people are saying here.