How to destroy a nation

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

That elimination comes later to everyone who wants it.

Why wait?

Why not eliminate Satan now to end the suffering of millions of innocent people?

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

Who’s letting you have your way? Would you prefer to be controlled? How about if the government had some way to implant a chip in everyone’s brain at birth that controlled what they thought and how they acted? Would you support that?

Why don’t you answer my questions first?

Why is God letting Satan have his sway?

How many millions of people have to suffer because God lets Satan have his sway?

It’s not a question of being controlled. It’s a question of God creating a powerful being - Satan - to possess people with Demons, to seduce and corrupt them which would never have happened if Satan hadn’t been around to do it.

Look at this logically.

As an atheist, I know all this evil is on human beings. There is no God, there is no Satan - it’s just us and what we’re doing to each other. And we, as human beings, have to do better.

But if I were to believe in God, I’d look around and say, “This world was created by a loving God? Where’s the love?”

You want people to have free will? Sure, let them think all the evil thoughts they want. Let them even be able to START taking action against some innocent.

That’s when God should step in. He should allow no harm to his children. (Not talking broken legs, or failed investments. I’m talking Evil caused by an Evil person.)

The evil person had his free will - God zapped him so he wouldn’t harm others.

That’s what a loving God would do.

Just as a loving parent steps in to protect his or her child from a bully, he or she doesn’t stand by and let the child be assaulted, raped, killed, etc. But then…that’s parental love.

[Optrader]

@AlexMcAlpine

@Optrader

That elimination comes later to everyone who wants it.

Why wait?

Why not eliminate Satan now to end the suffering of millions of innocent people?

Are you ready to be eliminated?

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

Are you ready to be eliminated?

I’ve asked two simple questions. Why don’t you answer them?

Why is God continuing to allow suffering on earth when with a wave of his all-powerful hand he could eliminate Satan?

And all suffering?

I’ll go further.

Why did the Bible not come about until Moses led the Jews out of Egypt?

Why not give Adam an alphabet - or have him create one - and write a Bible or 10 commandments for Adam that could be passed on to everyone born so that there’d be no possibility of anyone ever forgetting or not hearing about God?

[Optrader]

@AlexMcAlpine

@Optrader

Are you ready to be eliminated?

I’ve asked two simple questions. Why don’t you answer them?

Why is God continuing to allow suffering on earth when with a wave of his all-powerful hand he could eliminate Satan?

And all suffering?

I’ll go further.

Why did the Bible not come about until Moses led the Jews out of Egypt?

Why not give Adam an alphabet - or have him create one - and write a Bible or 10 commandments for Adam that could be passed on to everyone born so that there’d be no possibility of anyone ever forgetting or not hearing about God?

Everyone is guilty of sin and is under penalty of death. You can have mercy or justice from God, but YOU have to make that choice freely. One or the other comes upon everyone and the chance to choose ends at death. Your complaining about it or disbelieving it is also your choice. God is not going to force you to believe in him and ask for that mercy, but if you do, you WILL receive it.

As for Moses and the Bible… Adam and Eve were created absolutely perfect. They communed directly with God and walked with him directly in his presence. One of the things which they would have had was an intellect far superior than ours today and also memories that were perfect as well.

When they sinned, and thus began to die, their perfect bodies and minds would slowly begin to diminish and they would continue to diminish as each generation was born. Writing wasn’t necessary until man’s mind could no longer remember perfectly. That’s why we see a near simultaneous appearance of writing in cultures all over…

As for the commandments, you can be sure they were given to Adam and Eve when they were kicked out of Eden and we’re not written down by God until Moses received them by his hand.

[TheRedComet]

The American revolution?

[Optrader]

@TheRedComet

The American revolution?

What about it?

[TheRedComet]

I’m asking if that is the revolution you were referring to.

I was honestly thinking you were speaking about the Protestant reformation.

[Optrader]

From what post? Probably the American, but im not sure which post your responding too

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

God is not going to force you to believe in him and ask for that mercy, but if you do, you WILL receive it.

You think threatening someone with eternal suffering in a lake of fire is not “forcing” someone to worship you? “Worship me, or else I’ll torture you forever.”

That’s why we see a near simultaneous appearance of writing in cultures all over…

One of the things which they would have had was an intellect far superior than ours today and also memories that were perfect as well.

If they had an intellect far superior to ours they wouldn’t have been gullible enough to believe in a talking serpent.

Is this your own theory or are quoting this from some kind of reference book. If so, could you provide the title, please?

When they sinned, and thus began to die, their perfect bodies and minds would slowly begin to diminish and they would continue to diminish as each generation was born. Writing wasn’t necessary until man’s mind could no longer remember perfectly.

Same question as above…where are you getting this info?

[Optrader]

@AlexMcAlpine

@Optrader

God is not going to force you to believe in him and ask for that mercy, but if you do, you WILL receive it.

You think threatening someone with eternal suffering in a lake of fire is not “forcing” someone to worship you? “Worship me, or else I’ll torture you forever.”

That’s why we see a near simultaneous appearance of writing in cultures all over…

One of the things which they would have had was an intellect far superior than ours today and also memories that were perfect as well.

If they had an intellect far superior to ours they wouldn’t have been gullible enough to believe in a talking serpent.

Is this your own theory or are quoting this from some kind of reference book. If so, could you provide the title, please?

When they sinned, and thus began to die, their perfect bodies and minds would slowly begin to diminish and they would continue to diminish as each generation was born. Writing wasn’t necessary until man’s mind could no longer remember perfectly.

Same question as above…where are you getting this info?

Ok, I’ll try and answer with sincerity and not condescension or snarkiness. One of the problems non believers have in opening the Bible is that they are simply not equipped to understand it. The Bible is a book of truths, primarily spiritual truths that can only be understood with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Non believers open a Bible, not to learn truth, but to look for “facts” or the absence thereof, to confirm their non belief.

Let me try then to approach the subject of Adam and Eve from a non perfect, secular point of view using some very imperfect analogies, and see if my claims make sense.

With all of man’s scientific advances and despite our modern brilliance, medical science not only can’t create a human being, but can’t even restore a dead human being to life. We have nothing real to compare man’s abilities with Gods, but we do have fiction, written by man, that gives us an idea of what man would create, if it WAS possible.

The first story is of Frankenstein. Who monster movie lovers usually view as Frankenstein is Boris Karloff, but that’s incorrect. Frankenstein was the Dr. or creator of the character Karloff played AKA the “monster”. Without going into all the incarnations and reimagining over time of the Frankenstein story, why do you think Mary Shelly envisioned the doctors creation as a monster?

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

Let me try then to approach the subject of Adam and Eve from a non perfect, secular point of view using some very imperfect analogies, and see if my claims make sense.

Your comment about perfect memories and the sudden development of language intrigued me. Is there a reference book I can go to that states these things, or are they your own ideas?

Without going into all the incarnations and reimagining over time of the Frankenstein story, why do you think Mary Shelly envisioned the doctors creation as a monster?

I am actually extremely familiar with the story of Frankenstein, as my bookclub discussed it exhaustively during this past Halloween.

Have you actually read the story?

Frankenstein works and works on his creature, thinking he’s creating something perfect. When it comes to life and he suddenly realizes how ugly is its outward appearance, he decides it has sinned against him by being ugly an he abandons it. Leaves his child to its fate.

The creature may be ugly on the outside, but inside it’s like an innocent child, full of goodness as it heads out into the world - where it is beaten and shunned because of its outward ugliness, until it turns into the monster - towards Frankenstein’s family and friends, at any rate - due entirely to its treatment by others.

The creature points out to Frankenstein that he didn’t ask to be created - why did Frankenstein create him and condemn him to a lifetime of misery by making him unlovable - due entirely to his outward appearance, remember.

Shelley made the creature a “monster” to explore how human beings treat each other by looking only at their outward selves rather than their inner selves. And it’s a paean against religion, really - or against unfeeling parents, if you prefer (as Mary Shelley’s father was a bit of a jerk, as was Percy Shelley toward their children) - why create a child that hasn’t asked to be created, and then condemn it to misery?

[Optrader]

@AlexMcAlpine

@Optrader

Let me try then to approach the subject of Adam and Eve from a non perfect, secular point of view using some very imperfect analogies, and see if my claims make sense.

Your comment about perfect memories and the sudden development of language intrigued me. Is there a reference book I can go to that states these things, or are they your own ideas?

Without going into all the incarnations and reimagining over time of the Frankenstein story, why do you think Mary Shelly envisioned the doctors creation as a monster?

I am actually extremely familiar with the story of Frankenstein, as my bookclub discussed it exhaustively during this past Halloween.

Have you actually read the story?

Frankenstein works and works on his creature, thinking he’s creating something perfect. When it comes to life and he suddenly realizes how ugly is its outward appearance, he decides it has sinned against him by being ugly an he abandons it. Leaves his child to its fate.

The creature may be ugly on the outside, but inside it’s like an innocent child, full of goodness as it heads out into the world - where it is beaten and shunned because of its outward ugliness, until it turns into the monster - towards Frankenstein’s family and friends, at any rate - due entirely to its treatment by others.

The creature points out to Frankenstein that he didn’t ask to be created - why did Frankenstein create him and condemn him to a lifetime of misery by making him unlovable - due entirely to his outward appearance, remember.

Shelley made the creature a “monster” to explore how human beings treat each other by looking only at their outward selves rather than their inner selves. And it’s a paean against religion, really - or against unfeeling parents, if you prefer (as Mary Shelley’s father was a bit of a jerk, as was Percy Shelley toward their children) - why create a child that hasn’t asked to be created, and then condemn it to misery?

You hit the nail on the head. IMPERFECT. No matter what the intent, man is not perfect, nor can he create something better than himself. It is our own ego which causes us to assume the prerogative of God and declare it to be equal, and like Frankensteins creation, tragedy is the result. Would you have created the “monster” or something of physical perfection if it had been you ? This is exactly what Lucifer tried to do, declare himself equal to God and take God’s position.

Unlike Frankenstein, God CAN create perfection, both inward and outward. He created Adam and Eve and they were able to be directly in his presence and commune with him. Sin made that impossible, no human today could stand in the unshielded presence of God. Why do you think God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, rather than as a holy man? Scripture says God created man a little lower than the angels. A LITTLE lower, and the angels still dwell in Gifs presence.

No matter what specimen of human physical perfection you could point to, make or female, no matter what human genius from any age you could use as an example, they would still be imperfect and have all the human frailties and flaws that humans have. Why does it make sense to you that an omnipotent God, capable of creating perfection of mind and body in a human wouldn’t do so?

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

Why does it make sense to you that an omnipotent God, capable of creating perfection of mind and body in a human wouldn’t do so?

Well…that’s the thing…

God would create something perfect.

But clearly he did not do so.

To me perfection would be no mistakes. There’d be no need for God to introduce a lying serpent to the Garden to test his creations because he would know they were perfect - filled with his spirit (as is supposed to happen at the Rapture I think?) and wanting all good things and no bad/evil things.

Adam and Eve fell. They were no longer perfect. Whiff them out of existence and create two new beings who actually were perfect.

What would the life of billions of people born and dying throughout the years have been then?

Instead, God punishes Adam and Eve and all their descendants - who had absolutely nothing to do with “original sin” and we have the miserable world we are in now. Not quite as bad as the brutality of the 16th century (I’m reading The Clockwork Universe at the moment) but bad enough.

And all that could have been avoided if God had just wiped out all creation like he said he would before the Flood, and start over with a better version.

You persist in not saying whether or not your views on the perfect intellects and memories of Adam and Eve and the simultaneous invention of writing is your own idea or if you read it - or heard it - somewhere.

I’m really interested to know this. If it’s in an actual book or speech, I’d like to hear it for myself.

[Optrader]

@AlexMcAlpine

@Optrader

Why does it make sense to you that an omnipotent God, capable of creating perfection of mind and body in a human wouldn’t do so?

Well…that’s the thing…

God would create something perfect.

But clearly he did not do so.

To me perfection would be no mistakes. There’d be no need for God to introduce a lying serpent to the Garden to test his creations because he would know they were perfect - filled with his spirit (as is supposed to happen at the Rapture I think?) and wanting all good things and no bad/evil things.

Adam and Eve fell. They were no longer perfect. Whiff them out of existence and create two new beings who actually were perfect.

What would the life of billions of people born and dying throughout the years have been then?

Instead, God punishes Adam and Eve and all their descendants - who had absolutely nothing to do with “original sin” and we have the miserable world we are in now. Not quite as bad as the brutality of the 16th century (I’m reading The Clockwork Universe at the moment) but bad enough.

And all that could have been avoided if God had just wiped out all creation like he said he would before the Flood, and start over with a better version.

You persist in not saying whether or not your views on the perfect intellects and memories of Adam and Eve and the simultaneous invention of writing is your own idea or if you read it - or heard it - somewhere.

I’m really interested to know this. If it’s in an actual book or speech, I’d like to hear it for myself.

I can’t say there is one particular book or speech which lays out my belief. I have belonged to many different churches and read a lot of books and done a lot of studying. I can give you one source regarding the physical perfection aspect. That would be from my time in the Seventh Days Adventist Church. They also believed Adam and Eve were of Giant stature as was common of creatures in the pre flood world.

I was attempting to apply some common sense reasoning to why I believe physical and mental perfection made sense without using a book you don’t believe in. But, as a non believer, you apparently believe every age is the apex of intelligence and perfection of its time and we continually, despite the evidence of nature, get better as the ages pass. You can’t get past your limited understanding of free choice, despite the fact that no one is forcing or preventing you from believing or doing anything you choose.

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

You can’t get past your limited understanding of free choice, despite the fact that no one is forcing or preventing you from believing or doing anything you choose.

I have often been asked in the past, why I ask questions in the religion forum when I’m an atheist.

My answer is always the same, because it’s a true one.

I am trying to learn what people believe, and why and how they believe it.

I ask questions about points I don’t understand.

I was accused by somebody of not actually trying to learn anything but rather trying to make other people doubt their religion.

That is not the case. However, if my questions cause someone to begin to doubt their religion because I raise a point they’ve never thought of before…that’s just an outcome of trying to get people to think rationally.

So when I ask you detailed questions about your beliefs, please don’t think I’m doing so because I’m deliberately trying to make you doubt your faith. I’m doing so because I try to understand how you can have that faith.

If my questions and responses come across as snarky I don’t mean them to be - well, not most of the time. I admit once in a while frustration creeps in and I break my own rule of keeping sarcasm out of the discussion since that accomplishes nothing except annoying the recipient.

Why does it matter what people believe? Does what one person believes effect other people’s lives?

Of course!

My same questions could be asked of people who support Trump. You could ask the same questions of people who support Biden. Why do some people believe Trump is a good businessman, when his very tax returns reveal he sucked at business? Why do some people believe Biden will be good for the economy while others don’t? How can some people believe that solar power helps the environment and blithely ignore it when you point out that mining the elements for solar panels causes pollution and once the solar panels are beyond their useful life they’ll cause yet more pollution in a landfield.

WHY and HOW people believe anything, in all aspects of their lives, affects us all.

Take for example you, Optrader.

I think it was in this thread that you made four accusations supporting your total belief that the Democrats have stolen the election. You provided no proof of your assertions - it didn’t occur to you to provide proof and you refused to look for it when I asked you to.

So other people are just supposed to take your unsubstantiated word?

No!

When people make claims - especially of criminal acts - they need to be investigated.

You do not seem to be interested in investigation - someone you heard on the radio made all these claims, they fit your world view, and you do not want to do anything that may cause you to doubt your world view.

So I did some research on the web and found all sorts of proofs that your claims were false.

You refuse to believe them. I’m willing to bet cash money you didn’t visit any of the links I provided you. Trump says that every news outlet is fake news, you believe Trump, so you won’t do any research to verify independently on your own.

A lot of conservatives seem to follow that creed…and I do wonder if it’s because they’re predisposed to it because they believe so fervently in an inerrant Bible even though that, too, has been proved to be riddled with errors.

(Which is another thing that puzzles me. If someone believes that the BIble is the inerrant word of God, and they are presented with a list of errors and inconsistencies, they still believe the Bible is inerrant._

So back to the topic of this thread:

Your response to my response didn’t address the issue I raised.

If God is perfect, why did he create flawed creatures and punish them for being flawed?

Do you really believe that people who CAN’T (not won’t, CAN"T) believe in in God, because they haven’t been infused by the Holy Spirit - deserve to suffer in Hell for all eternity?

Why does it matter to God what happens to people who don’t believe in him? Everyone else is up in heaven having a jolly good time, why should he concern himself so much with those poor unfortunate souls who can’t believe in him? Why torture them instead of just whiff them out of existence?

[Meriweather]

@AlexMcAlpine

Why do some people believe Trump is a good businessman, when his very tax returns reveal he sucked at business?

Sports advice: You miss all the shots you never take.

With the Donald Trump Tax returns, we see the shots he made and the shots he took but didn’t make. I’ll bet we can do the same for any top sports figure–we can see the shots they made and the shots they didn’t make. Is the greatest bit of advice ever given, Don’t take the shot?

[Meriweather]

@AlexMcAlpine

Why does it matter to God what happens to people who don’t believe in him? Everyone else is up in heaven having a jolly good time, why should he concern himself so much with those poor unfortunate souls who can’t believe in him? Why torture them instead of just whiff them out of existence?

You are the one who insists God tortures people and then lay that belief of yours at the feet of those who believe in God. God’s presence helps us here on earth; we enjoy His presence in the afterlife, unless that is not your cup of tea. Then it is not you who is whiffed out of existence, it is God who is whiffed out of your presence.

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Meriweather

You are the one who insists God tortures people and then lay that belief of yours at the feet of those who believe in God.

Literalists believe that God tortures people, Meri. In this instance my post is directed at literalists. Or evangelicals, as I think they’re also called.

[AlexMcAlpine]

This is a video of a guy named R. C. Sproles. Just about the most evil point of view I’ve ever read…yet there are people who believe him implicitly.

God supposedly created us and loves us.

Why would God make such vile and worthless creatures - and more importantly how can He love them? Just because they love him?

Is eternal punishment in hell fair?