If you have a relevant quote, post it and reference it. I have never indicated the words rational basis has not been used by the court. What I have found after reading hundreds of court opinions, specifically named “tests” began to appear and gain a foothold during the Warren Court of the l960’s.

But that really is irrelevant to the discussion. What is relevant is, these tests are not used to determine what is and what is not permitted by our Constitution’s text and legislative intent. The are used to switch the subject and create a platform for members on the Court to ignore enforcing the text of our Constitution and the intentions and beliefs under which its provisions were adopted, and allow judges and Justices to impose their personal whims and fancies upon the people as the rule of law using flowery terms and phrases to justify ignoring the will of the people as expressed in a written Constitution!

JWK

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges’ views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black ( U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968

It isn’t clear at all.

Which of his plans do you believe were unconstitutional? Be specific.

That would be a fairly long list.

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Not a rational basis, but a personal view, John.

There is a difference.

The voters in callie used their personal views.

Whereas the majority of justices used rational basis.

Allan

So now you, like the court, assume 52% of the voters did not have a rational basis for voting in favor of Prop 8, and then pretend the justices decision was a rational based decision. :roll_eyes:

In addition, Allen, you ignore the fact that the wording of the 14th Amendment, as I have demonstrated above, allows a state to refuse to grant a marriage license to same sex couples if they choose to do so, but if they choose to do so, they must deny that license to all same sex couples. That is equal protection of a state’s laws.

In other words, the Justices striking down Prop 8 usurped legislative power, imposed their personal views of justice, fairness and reasonableness as the rule of law, and ignored powers retained by the States and people therein under the Tenth Amendment. And that amounts to judicial tyranny.

JWK

"The public welfare demands that constitutional cases must be decided according to the terms of the Constitution itself, and not according to judges’ views of fairness, reasonableness, or justice." – Justice Hugo L. Black ( U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1886 - 1971) Source: Lecture, Columbia University, 1968

and that would be correct this is no rational basis to against discriminate gays using the 14th amendment equal protection clause… so sayeth SCOTUS.

I know you dont like it.

tough.

I am not going to like Cakeshop and union Opinion.

ya gotta take the good with the bad.

Allan

If interested John here is the Thayer’s original article that started the rational basis review movement.

fascinating read. easy to see why it was so influential to Holmes.

Allan

FDR was far from perfect, His attempt to pack the court, His unconstitutional legislative agenda. His internment aand stealing the assets of US citizens without due process.

He had many good ideas, but these were horrifically bad.

Allan

I don’t care. Hit me with it.

Whether rationally based or not, it is not within the Courts authority to second guess a legislative act and impose it’s will as the rule of law. To do so is to usurp legislative authority and ignore the separation of powers in our system of government, not to mention how such action by judges and Justices negates the very reason for elections, which, in most cases, is to change public policy via appropriate legislation. The proper method for change in such instances is the voting both, and not arbitrary and capricious attacks upon our Constitution by judges and Justices.

The irrefutable fact is, the 14th Amendment, as I have demonstrated above, allows a state to refuse to grant a marriage license to same sex couples if they choose to do so, but if they choose to do so, they must deny that license to all same sex couples. That is equal protection of a state’s laws.

The bottom line is, these tests, invented by the Court and unknown to our Founders, in almost all cases, are about creating a platform for members on the Court to ignore enforcing the text of our Constitution and the intentions and beliefs under it was adopted, and allow judges and Justices to impose their personal whims and fancies upon the people as the rule of law using flowery terms and phrases to justify ignoring the will of the people as expressed in a written Constitution!

JWK

……we are not at liberty to second-guess congressional determinations and policy judgments of this order, however debatable or arguably unwise they may be…The wisdom of Congress’ action, however, is not within our province to second guess. _________ELDRED et al. v. ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL (2003)

Prop 8 was a voter initiative, not a legislative act.

Changing law via mob rule is not the way to go.

and thats exactly what prop 8 was.

Allan

Correct.

Funny how that was missed by the OP.

Not going to research and write a paper for you, go look up the actions the Supreme Court struck down before his threat to pack the court and before he seated a few. It’s not like you are going to agree with the pre_FDR courts in regard to enumerated powers so I am not wasting my time.

Just list five or six. Are they laws that setup programs? Or are they rules?

I don’t think I disagree with the pre-FDR court regarding enumerated powers.

You can call it whatever you wish, but the bottom line is, Prop 8 is a legislative act voted upon by the people. I have never been a big fan of voter initiatives when they are used to decide certain issues. But voter initiatives are part of California’s law for change, and not arbitrary and capricious decisions made by judges and Justices imposing their whims and fancies upon the people, and especially not when they undo the people’s lawful method for policy making change.

JWK

……we are not at liberty to second-guess congressional determinations and policy judgments of this order, however debatable or arguably unwise they may be…The wisdom of Congress’ action, however, is not within our province to second guess. _________ELDRED et al. v. ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL (2003)

If you are are really interested you can start here

One of the most blatant attacks on our constitutionally limited system of government and its defined and limited powers by our Supreme Court was upholding FDR’s Social Security crap.

In the Courts’ written opinions, Helvering v. Davis,301 U.S. 619 (1937), and Steward Machine Co., which upheld the Social Security Act, the Court cited the Butler decision decided the previous year and went on to assert Hamilton’s view concerning the phrase “general welfare” prevails over that of Madison, and, the Court will not “resurrect the contest”.

In other words, the Court was not interested in reviewing the historical record during the making of our Constitution to document the meaning of “general welfare” as it was understood by our founders during its framing and ratification process. Instead, the Court use an irrelevant random comment made by Hamilton concerning the phrase “general welfare” made after the Constitution had been adopted in order to uphold the progressive’s Social Security Act as being constitutional. And the Court totally ignored the meaning of “general welfare” as articulated during the framing and ratification process of our Constitution, even ignoring what Hamilton himself stated during this process which contradicted Hamilton’s comment after the Constitution had been adopted. And that [using random comments made after the adoption of our Constitution] to support the Courts conclusion, violated a cardinal rule of constitutional construction.

16 Am Jur 2d Constitutional law
Meaning of Language
Ordinary meaning, generally

”Words or terms used in a constitution, being dependent on ratification by the people voting upon it, must be understood in the sense most obvious to the common understanding at the time of its adoption…”__ (my emphasis).

The Court is not free to make the words or phrases in our Constitution mean whatever they so desire, but are confined to their original understanding as understood by our founding fathers and those who ratified the Constitution, at the time of its adoption!

The fact is Hamilton’s comment made after the Constitution was adopted is in direct conflict with what Hamilton wrote in Federalist No. 83 to gain support for the adoption of the Constitution. In No. 83 Federalist, and in explaining the meaning of the Constitution, Hamilton, in crystal clear language, refers to a “specification of particulars” which he goes on to say “evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority“.

Hamilton wrote:

"…the power of Congress…shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended…"

This view expressed by Hamilton in the Federalist Papers during the ratification debates is also in harmony with what Madison states during the framing and ratification debates:

Madison, in No. 41 Federalist, explaining the meaning of the general welfare clause to gain the approval of the proposed constitution, states the following:

"It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes…to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor [the antifederalists] for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction…But what color can this objection have, when a specification of the object alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not ever separated by a longer pause than a semicolon?..For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power…But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning…is an absurdity."

Likewise, in the Virginia ratification Convention Madison explains the general welfare phrase in the following manner so as to gain ratification of the constitution: “the powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its jurisdiction.”[3Elliots 95]

Also see Nicholas, 3 Elliot 443 regarding the general welfare clause, which he pointed out "was united, not to the general power of legislation, but to the particular power of laying and collecting taxes…"

Similarly, George Mason, in the Virginia ratification Convention informs the convention

"The Congress should have power to provide for the general welfare of the Union, I grant. But I wish a clause in the Constitution, with respect to all powers which are not granted, that they are retained by the states. Otherwise the power of providing for the general welfare may be perverted to its destruction.". [3Elliots 442]

For this very reason the Tenth Amendment was quickly ratified to intentionally put to rest any question whatsoever regarding the general welfare clause, and thereby cut off the pretext to allow Congress, or the courts, to extended federal powers via the wording provide for the “general welfare“.

JWK

"The Constitution is the act of the people, speaking in their original character, and defining the permanent conditions of the social alliance; and there can be no doubt on the point with us, that every act of the legislative power contrary to the true intent and meaning of the Constitution, is absolutely null and void. ___ Chancellor James Kent, in his Commentaries on American Law (1858)

Actually the court can do whatever it wishes, they are not beholden to anything or anybody.

Allan

Because we broke the systems check against their power when we passed the seventeenth amendment. Leaving the federal fox guarding the federal hens.