Have you chosen salvation by scapegoat? Is that Moral?


#1

Have you chosen salvation by scapegoat? Is that Moral?

Who would say that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice? Satan or Yahweh?

Many Christians just want a get out of hell free card and will follow Satan and do the immoral thing of using Jesus as their scapegoat to get it.

Jesus taught the opposite with his, pick up your cross and follow me. He did not teach, get on and ride me into heaven.

Some would have Jesus break the law he said he came to fulfil.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the
iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

I think that the bottom moral line to the whole notion of substitutionary punishment is as follows.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, — so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, — is immoral. To abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat — is immoral.

If you do not agree, please offer an argument that shows where and how punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is a moral thing to do.

Regards
DL


#2

Stipulating that God exists for the sake of this discussion - having Jesus suffer for the “wrongs” done by mankind was God’s idea.

Jesus dies for everyone else’s sin, everyone who accepts him as their savior goes to heaven.

That’s God’s plan.

God isn’t really moral, as humans understand morality, is He? Otherwise he wouldn’t have condemned innocent generations unborn to punishment for what Adam and Eve did.

In the same way, God sent Jesus to die on the cross - it was all part of his plan. And don’t forget that Jesus didn’t really die - he’s immortal and would always have gone to heaven. So there really wasn’t any sacrifice involved by God in that regard.


#3

It’s hard to argue that Christianity isn’t a religion based on human sacrifice.


#4

Let’s make this less convoluted. Mankind was using (scape)goats sent off into the wilderness bearing sins of man. Animals were being slaughtered/sacrificed. People were giving up grains/produce/money for forgiveness of sins. Then along comes Christ, saying, “Sins are forgiven.”

Those in power tell Jesus he has no authority to teach such a thing, claiming ti was from God, and he was to shut up. Jews believed Covenants with God were sealed with blood. Jesus response was to rise from the dead after giving his blood as both a sign and seal of this Covenant with God.

Jesus death was not required for God to forgive us our sins; his death was required by mankind for the assurance that upon repentance our sins are forgiven. How do we know this? We point to the sacrifice Christ made that sacrificing our animals, produce, and income are not required to forgive our sins. Repentance (meaning turning from sin to God) and Christ is our living/breathing example of how to do this even when it means our own death here on earth.


#5

In fact, very easy to point out that it is not.


#6

U C 20/20 on this.

Your view of clear but you forget that God could have found a moral way to forgive us instead of making us do the immoral thing of ridding a scapegoat.

You quoted the above but did not show if you agreed with the statement or not. Care to opine?

Regards
DL


#7

For sure. That is why it is hard to argue that Christianity is a moral religion and if it was, it would have grown from good moral arguments instead of inquisitions and murder.

Regards
DL


#9

None of it makes any sense. Theyll just say “gods ways are mysterious” or “I cant comprehend god”. When, really, it just makes no sense


#11

It is against TOS for you to call someone on these forums a liar.

Regards
DL

Is there a footer function on these forums, or do you actually type “Regards, DL” after every single post you make? And if so, why?


#12

You are doing such a fine job all on your own.


#13

There is not a footer function on the forum.

The FAQ actually discourages signing your posts.


#14

“The wages of sin is death.”

You don’t like that, we get it. Neither did Lucifer, and yet, there it is. Your claim that Jesus is a scapegoat is incorrect. Jesus CHOSE to pay the price for man’s sin, he wasn’t forced. Also, Christians do accept responsibility for their sins. Accepting the love and mercy of Christ and the efficacy of His shed blood on the cross IS accepting responsibility. WE didn’t sacrifice HIM- HE CHOSE to sacrifice himself.

If you or your child were trapped in a burning building, would you accept the sacrifice of a fireman to save you? Society calls those who die for others heroes whether they are fireman, policeman, soldiers or just ever day citizens. The Bible says no greater love can be shown than by giving your life for someone else. Jesus is not just a friend or stranger, but our Heavenly Father, and what father wouldn’t die for his children? You call what Christ did “human sacrifice”?? Your ignorance of both Christianity and human sacrifice is staggering.

Christians get to spend eternity in Heaven, but you lucky dog get to go to a place of outer darkness and torment, with nothing but the sound of weeping and gnashing of teeth to keep you company for all eternity; well that AND the satisfaction of knowing how foolish we Christians are… Very shrewd bargain you made. Enjoy…


#15

Such a loving God.

I love how you guys ignore God isnt just some “fireman” but GOD. The creator of the world. Who can at the snap of a finger correct it all.

Instead, he plays the hunger games.

Will firemen put you in eternal hell if you dont worship them? So much for “sacrifice”. Jesus didnt sacrifice anything. God is still alive and never died. Jesus resurrected. That’s not sacrifice.


#16

You ignore that in the Jesus scenario, Jesus started the fire by condemning you in the first place.

You are a sinner who says your wage is death, yet here you are alive which shows the lie in your own statement.

The rest of what you put is thus worthless.

Regards
DL


#17

This is actually a good reply and question and the answer is your God/heavenly father who sent his son to die.

You condemn Yahweh with your own words.

Regards
DL


#18

Nice to see a realist who is not into supernaturalstupid thinking.
Nice work.

Regards
DL


#19

I began with a simple truth: " The wages of sin is death." I didn’t create this truth, nor can I explain why it is true. I can’t explain gravity, but my lack of explanation doesn’t make it less true either. You claim God condemns you and resent the idea of Hell being the penalty for those who don’t worship Him, yet the CHOICE is yours. Would you prefer to NOT have a choice.

If God chose to, He could not only force you to worship Him, but make it seem to you like it’s your own desire; no one including you would know. This is the definition of tyranny is it not? Forcing people to worship and/or obey? God is not a tyrant, nor does He want programmed robots. Only tyrants take pleasure in forced obedience.

Getting back to the parent analogy… If you tell your 3 year old not to play near the street, or talk to strangers, ( or really just about anything), do you believe the 3 year old truly understands the dangers you are wanting to keep them from? You are smarter and wiser than a 3 year old and you make rules to protect them because you love them. Do you punish them when they don’t obey? How old are they before you don’t punish them for not obeying? Do you have rules for your 16 year old? Do you take away the car, their allowance etc. when they break your rules? Is a 16 year old more able to understand rules and why you impose them- that you make rules out of love and not hate? Why would you punish them then for breaking your rules? Because you are a tyrant? Did you force your 16 year old to keep your rules or break them? Nope, they excercised free will.

Now what if you have many children? Do you have the same rules for all or are you arbitrary? See where I’m going here? Human beings can not understand fully the damage of sin, to us as individuals and to everyone else. For whatever reason, sin can only be dealt with by the shedding of blood. It is your choice as to whose blood pays the price. We didn’t kill Jesus. He didn’t have to come down here. He could have changed his mind anytime after He did come. How human beings possibly kill God? He CHOSE to die for us. It’s your choice to accept or not.


#20

That isnt “simple truth”. I can test gravity right now. I cant test that jesus was the son of God anymore than you can test all the other ancient gods


#21

Only tyrants do this:

Christians always have to use oversimplified analogies because nothing makes sense


#22

We arent talking about human parents raising 16 year olds.

We are talking about GOD for crying out loud.

Let’s talk about God.

I’m not all knowing. I’m not “all loving”. I’m not the one who CREATED THE WORLD. I’m not the one selectively performing magic and miracles in human existence.