Growing evidence that Wuhan coronavirus orginated in a lab

I really disagree with that last part.

The attachment of a nefarious motivation to expertise that pretty much agrees about the origins is not the best way to approach it.

One can say that they are all wrong and list the reasons why, but to insinuate some sort of coverup as a motivation is not the best way to approach this IMO.

Perhaps congress and the media should ask the experts about the likely origin of the virus. The experts should be able to explain why they appear to be ignoring the most relevant literature related to laboratory development of dangerous viruses similar to COVID-19, such as the papers outlined in the video.

The media has raised concerns about accidental release of dangerous lab-produced viruses in the past. Here is one example from 2014:

Not every virologist in the world is invested in allowing gain of function experiments, so assigning “cover up and so therefore we have to go outside the field of expertise” is circular reasoning.

The reasons provided in the articles cited as to why COVID was likely not designed in a lab are sound…I know something of how such experiments would be carried out…not going to claim complete expertise as I am a chemist not a geneticist.

But I’ve seen enough design of experiments to believe the argument that scientists would not choose to deliberately design in mutations their computer models would suggest are not going to lead to the gain of function they are looking to achieve.

We can debate whether such gain of function experiments should be allowed without having to assign nefarious origins to SARS-CoV-2.

I agree with the basic principle that once we get to the point where this is as “under control” as it possibly can be that we definitely hold investigations to uncover as much of the truth as we can.

Here is a story that illustrates the problem as I see it.

Suppose you come home one day and a skylight in your house is shattered with broken glass everywhere. You find a small rock in the with the glass shards, which appears be the reason why the glass shattered.

You talk to neighbors and they note the some of the local kids were playing games and bragging about throwing rock around. Clearly they are the experts on the damage that rocks can cause.

You talk to the kids and that say the shattered sky light must come from a meteorite hitting the glass; they saw a news report of just such an incident some time ago. They have done experiments and proved that it is impossible throw a rock up to the skylight from the park behind the house; the skylight is too high to reach by throwing. Besides, if the intent were to shatter glass, the optimum rock would be much bigger that the small rock you found.

The kids fail to mention that several of their group have been experimenting with sling shots and have been trying to hit squirrels on rooftops of neighborhood houses using a nearby tree fort as a base. The sling shots use small rocks very similar to the one you found after the skylight was shattered; they work best with a sling shot.

Do you conclude that the small rock must be a meteorite?

A “natural” explanation fits all the data that you have. Why resort to some wild conspiracy theory involving human intervention?

The flaws in your analogy are many. I’ll highlight two.

Flaw number one is assuming all the experts in the field are analogous to “the kids” who have a vested interest in keeping silent about the slingshot experiments a secret.

Flaw number two is the “optimal rock” analogy. In this case it’s not that the “rock” wasn’t optimal. It’s that the models they would have used to design the rock were telling them the rock was a sponge ball, not a rock. It’s not that the model was giving them a “sub-optimal virus”. It’s that the model would tell them that such a virus wouldn’t provide the gain of function…at all.

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It seems to be getting a bit more attention. I am seeing the Washington post and the National Review have and article on it. They are not saying Bio weapon just that the bat was being studied in two labs close to the wet markets and those particular bats were not for sale at the wet markets.

Seems plausible after watching the video of the man going to the bat caves collecting virus specimens from the horseshoe bats for the Wuhan viral institute. To me the big unknown is how are they so sure that bat wasn’t in the wet markets for sale? I understand that bat isn’t native in that region but not sure why it couldn’t be shipped in for consumption. Regardless after watching the video still 100% the Wuhan Virus Labs has the virus whether it was and accidental spill or something else not sure about it.

This is the short vid I am speaking of I am sure I am behind the curve on this theory was reading about it late last night. In the video (Professionally Produced) at the 2:19 mark you can read clearly who he works and collects bat viruses for “Wuhan Centre for Disease Protection and Control”.

The only place where bats are known to be kept in the Wuhan area is at the virology labs. There is zero evidence of the wet market keeping bats, and the paper (linked in post 59) that was withdrawn claims that the authors interviewed people who frequented the wet market and they none of them report seeing bats for sale. As far as wild bats, the nearest colony is over 500 miles away, and Chinese bats were hibernating around the time of the first infections.

On top of that, Chinese sources agree that the wet market is not the original source of the outbreak. See link in post 110.

There is no evidence that idea that the virus came from a bat in the wet market has any basis in fact. It is at best an urban legend at this point.

Does that prove it is impossible? No, just very unlikely. Perhaps a unicorn is the source of a virus; we can’t disprove that with absolute certainty either.

In contrast, the COVID-19 is entirely consistent with a lab-produced virus. Here is a quote from Scientist Magazine from the OP about work done jointly at UNC and the Wuhan Virology Lab:

Ralph Baric, an infectious-disease researcher at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, last week (November 9) published a study on his team’s efforts to engineer a virus with the surface protein of the SHC014 coronavirus, found in horseshoe bats in China, and the backbone of one that causes human-like severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in mice. The hybrid virus could infect human airway cells and caused disease in mice . . .

From what I see, the current evidence is pointing towards the virus being a cross between two naturally occurring viruses with some additional mutations. That is entirely consistent with a lab origin. It also possible that the virus naturally evolved somewhere else and was brought to the lab for study, so natural origin does not mean that a lab had nothing to do with the outbreak.

I could buy that they were studying new bat viruses in a lab and it got out.

But doubtful they made this is all I’m saying.

You might be interested in this video that quotes publicly available sources from the Chinese internet that shows evidence that a Wuhan Lab a short distance from the seafood market is really the home of patient zero.

The sources are all in Chinese so most foreigners are unable to read them, but they document that the Wuhan lab was looking to file job openings related study of bat coronaviruses in November. In December it was looking for candidates to study human-to-human transmission of coronaviruses, which it tacitly acknowledged was already occurring.

The Chinese sources describe a lab accident that infected a researcher as patient zero. The researcher is no longer appearing in photos and has not been seen for several months, yet the government is insisting that she is still alive and well. People in China have attempted to find her via the internet, but there is no evidence that she is still alive. Speculation is she died as a result of the infection and her body was quickly cremated.

The source appears to be credible. Most of the statements are documented with screen shots in Chinese with English translations. I would be interested if anyone can confirm that the English translations are accurate.

Additional information related to the video appears at:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/i-found-source-covid-19

I understand the motivation for the Chinese government to hide the truth. Any interesting question is why would US researchers and experts be complicit in spreading disinformation about the true source of the virus?

This falls under the category of “just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.”

Just because it sounds implausible or even crazy does not mean that it is not true.

Three possible explanations.

*Most people aren’t even thinking about it.

*As I said not all researchers are “in on it”.

*Those that would be “in on it” want to keep doing research on viruses here (and there’s a lot of good reason to do this research…none of it nefarious) don’t want there to be a backlash against that research here, where we likely take many more precautions against accidental release than China (hopefully).

Reading this thread I have to wonder when 5g will make an appearance?

Yes. They would expose China in a millisecond.

Duh! Don’t you even read your own typed text?

I doubt will ever know the complete truth the CCP did their best to cover everything for a long time. I hope people understand on here I don’t have anything against Chinese people :). Just their government and I wish they would ban these markets as I was reading the other day it’s not a matter of if but when another virus outbreak comes from regions of the world that eat bushmeat and other exotic food, especially in nasty conditions.

Well if zerohedge says it is true then it must be true. :roll_eyes:

And if you report any unflattering news about the Chinese government you rapidly get booted off of Twitter and defunded on You-tube. It is as if the Beijing is censoring through Twitter and You-tube.

That could never happen?

Look past the zero hedge the YouTube video they are referencing didn’t come from them. It is interesting but not affiliated with zero hedge

I swear I posted this before I even knew it was a thing

I don’t YouTube or twitter so I googled twitter and China cover up. An endless array of tweets were there that discussed the Chinese government in an unflattering manner. I checked CNN, same thing.