Global warming is real


#2610

The alignments remain accurate to this day,k there is no need for assumptions.

We know they were built with the purpose of putting various constellations in view through small apertures at certain times of the year and the same with the solstices. We also know that after many millennia they continue to appear at the same locations today.’

Accurate thermometers have only existed for just around 300 years and have only been in wide distribution for less than a century.

Every thing prior to that is based on assumptions and “estimates” that cannot be verified.


#2611

You keep ignoring the second part of your claim, and I don’t blame you because it’s the part that makes no sense.

The second part of claim that our orbit is returns to “normal”. Now, if the Earth has ever been observed or measured to be affected by some temporary force and then return to “normal” maybe you led be right, but so far you haven’t even claimed that has happened.

I’ve been very consistent. I’ve said that minor interactions will affect our orbit, but the effect is so small it could probably not even be measured let alone have any real significance and no forces are present that will “undo” the interaction.

Like my earlier example, a probe getting a gravity assist from Jupiter gains more momentum at the cost of a tiny bit of momentum from Jupiter. But do you think we’d ever be able to measure (or observe) the difference? No way.


#2612

I’m not ignoring anything. We’ve had NEOS’ passing the earth throughout recorded history and the oribits of many can be calculated just like those of the planets and verified through both observation and the historical record.

When you observe a ball that you bounce off the floor bouncing upward but don’t measure it’s rise you know it rose.

You can also calculate it’s rise accurately knowing the forces acting on it and verify it through observation and measurement.


#2613

So you can calculate backwards and forwards. Great! And then you compare those calculated values to what?

Let’s say we calculate back 1000 years. How do we verify the orbit was as calculated? Do you have records with great precision?

Why would they have to be precise? Because the recorded NEOs in that time period would have had a negligible effect on our orbit.

So to prove your point you have to go back in time knowing an NEO occurred that had a non-negligible effect on our orbit, determine the orbit at that time and then compare to our orbit some time after the NEO has moved out of the system.

Go ahead.


#2614

You can go back as far as those observatories have existed and compare current data to where the constellations were originally recorded by their placement.

We can also go back as far as the historical records go to the recorded observations made by the early modern astronomers.


#2615

So in that case we must have observed the effect on our orbit from a NEO, wouldn’t that be the case?

Had that happened or not?

More importantly, have we then observed our orbit return to “normal”?


#2616

We know they happened. When we returned to the predictable orbit cannot be determined with any accuracy, we just know that it has since the calculations still prove out going in both directions.

Whatever temporary perturbations occurred the numbers still work out.

I hate to have to resort to gross over simplifications but whether you record the exact time the sun rises each day, we know it rose and that it will rise again just as it has throughout the history of the planet.


#2617

Yeah, it’s almost like any perturbations never existed in the first place, at least not to any degree that was measurable or observable.

Because as you already pointed out, we’ve only been able to measure these things for an extremely short period of time.


#2618

And again whether or not they could be measured at the time in no way indicates they did not occur.

Physics tells us that each of those objects has some effect on the earth.


#2619

Okay. But physics doesn’t tell us our orbit is going to return to some magical equilibrium and no observations have demonstrated such an occurrence. All you can say is that we haven’t seen any unpredicted variation in the last 100 years, but that just means there’s been no measureable alteration of our orbit in that time frame one way or another.


#2620

That’s nice. Can you show;

  1. That the orbit then was the same as now.
  2. A NEO object passed by in the intervening years of such magnitude that it would be detectable beyond the precision of the orbit historical records.

You need to do this to prove out your hypothesis.


#2621

It’ll never happen.


#2622

You know that.

I know that.

Wildrose will explain how all objects effect our orbit, that there are many NEOs and that there is historical record of orbits being the same as today. “It’s obvious from that point. Clearly you don’t know Physics!”


#2623

Yes, that’s what I said, even in a vacuum, eventually the kinetic energy imparted by the pluck is eroded by the friction in the wire. But again, a planetary orbit has no tensile force to negate the force imparted by an NEO if it “plucks” it.


#2624

But that is where the comparison breaks down, the disturbed orbit of a planet is NOT like a plucked guitar string. There is no tension pulling it into a straight line, Its new lowest potential energy orbit is wherever the NEO left it.


#2625

All we need to do is check those ancient temples and observatories to see if the same alignments still occur to see that we have remained in the same orbit long term.

In the shorter term all we need do is refer to the records of those events and the positions as recorded throughout history.


#2626

And you think those temples have the necessary accuracy to detect small differences?

Cmon man. Be reasonable.


#2627

There is both gravity and momentum keeping them on and then returning them to the same orbits.

In order for anything to have a permanent effect on our orbit it would have to be sufficient as to over come both the gravity and momentum acting on the planets which are the equivalent of the anchors of the guitar string and tension on it.

Gravity acts in a straight line just like the tendon on the string. Momentum also acts in a straight line. Gravity working in opposition to that straight line converts forward momentum to angular momentum.


#2628

You cannot say that absolutely. The affect on the orbit is dependent on the mass of the NEO and how near it passes. There is no possible way to know that it is not appreciable because you have no idea of how many, how large or how close NEOs may have been. Don’t you think that if the NEO that eventually collided with Earth and formed the Moon had never hit us that it would not have caused an “appreciable” change to our obit?


#2629

They have the necessary accuracy to show that our orbit has remained relatively stable over the long term since they were built. Some of them are as old as 40,000 years.