Free will in the Bible - does it really exist?

During Moses time trying to lead the Israelites out of Egypt, God continually hardened Pharaoh’s heart so he wouldn’t let them go. He did this so that he could show the Israelites his power.

But wasn’t this interfering with Pharaoh’s free will? Pharaoh was willing to let the Israelites go and save his own people a lot of grief, but God toyed with his mind for his own purposes.

There are other instances -

That is a good question. But 1st Samuel 6:6 implies that it was Pharaoh who hardened his heart. It seems that 1st Samuel 6:6 contradicts the Exodus account of who hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

In the account, we see Pharaoh wavering between what he knew was right to do and what may have been more practical to do. For example, look at the incident of the plague of frogs when Pharaoh agreed that he should change his mind, and would if the frogs went away. That plague of frogs was a powerful argument for Pharaoh to change his mind. But Pharaoh did not.

Let’s compare this to the present day. President Trump supporters can be given powerful arguments for them to change their allegiance to the Democrats–and vice versa. Yet we see all that these arguments do is further harden the hearts with whom the argument is directed.

Back then, the Lord was trying to work with Pharaoh, trying to get him to see the light, but the end result is that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened all the more. That hardening came from within Pharaoh, a clear example of free will. God gave Pharaoh the opportunity to change his mind and do the right thing, but the result of that opportunity was that Pharaoh said no, clinging to his own position that much harder.

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Exodus is an interesting account. As you know, Alex, I am not one who believes Bible accounts are historically factual from word one to that final world–at least not by the ways 21st century mankind thinks is terms of fact. I think more in terms of accuracy, and in the truths of the themes/lessons being conveyed. These days we are quite compartmentalized.

Imagine gathering well known information back in that day and age, when people weren’t all that concerned on memorizing historical dates. Generations passed, perhaps hundreds of years, but memorable events were still be recounted.

Could a volcano, hundreds of years before Exodus, caused the plagues the Hebrews knitted together to tell the story of Exodus? It was a story of how the ten gods of Egypt could not prevent these natural disasters. While there is evidence that the twelve tribes of Israel traversed through the Sinai desert leaving little or no trace, there is evidence that perhaps one tribe of Israel did make this sojourn and one that Jews generations later embraced and adopted for all of Judaism.

And, the God of all was much greater and more powerful than all ten gods of Egypt. What did past generations believe to be important to teach the generations who came after?

What some dismiss as ancient superstitions, I see as some of the most wise and brilliant minds of all ages. Maybe that’s what happens when we unclutter and free our minds from strict Encyclopedic facts and can view how it all works together.

Take a lump of butter in one hand and a lump of clay in the other and lay them out on a sidewalk on a hot summer day. The same sun that melts one, hardens the other. Was it the sun by itself or the nature of the substance when exposed to the sun that caused each to react?

By your history of posts, you seem to be hard hearted too when God speaks to you through other people. He allows you the freedom to choose what to believe and how to respond to those who do. Is your hard heart towards God his doing or do you exercise your own free will?

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You could read the Exodus account and see there were times God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and there were times he hardened it himself.

There is no contradiction. If I tell my son to get off the computer game he has been playing for two hours, he may either choose to graciously obey, or he may harden his heart and refuse. Had I not insisted he get off, he would not have hardened his heart. So in a sense I hardened his heart by insisting he get off. I did not force him to become resentful, nevertheless I made him resentful. I may even be able, based in past experience with my son, to predict that my demand will harden his heart. However, I am not making the demand in order to harden his heart.

Pharaoh could have reacted like Cyrus later did, and consent to letting Israel go free. But Pharaoh chose to resist God’s will: Pharaoh hardened his heart. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart by demanding the release of Israel. But God did not force Pharaoh to harden his heart.

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Do you have a choice…to believe…or not? So did they all the way back then and all the way until today. Your will is free…to decide things for yourself. If you pray though…and love The Lord…and make an effort to do so daily…He’ll help guide you along your journey.

“Will” in biblical Greek is thelEma and mean desires, not active choice. Many people think of free will as the ability to DO what one desires, which is actually omnipotence. Free will is being able to desire to do, not being able to do one’s desires.

Hence Paul says, “To will is present but to do is not.” That is, “I want to do the right thing but I end up doing otherwise.” Or as Jesus said, " The spirit is willing (desiring) but the flesh is weak ( and prevents you doing)."

Thank you Paul my Brother. Thank you very much. I may be using the term incorrectly? My desire, is that The Lord’s Will…is my will…and we are one.

I’ve learned that there are two aspects to God’s will. That which he causes and that which he allows. All people are subject to the second, but probably far fewer the first.

It always seems to be non believers who do not believe or understand the concept of free will, despite the irony that their very ability to disbelieve demonstrates the idea perfectly. Their position seems to be "I will only believe in God when God reveals himself in a tangible way to me, not realizing that doing so would take away the very free will they had been using to disbelieve. It’s a horrible catch 22. They won’t believe until God reveals himself, and God won’t reveal himself until they believe… :thinking:

Of course Jesus said that many who did witness first hand his life and miracles still didn’t believe. There are still a lot of Pharos on the earth.

According to scriptures, no one has free will and non-believers are created to be non-believers.


Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, — and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, — then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, — which would make all Christians who say they have faith, — liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

Which specific *quote" in the video do you find most compellingly refutes free will? Please reference one specific scripture that you believe most certainly contradicts free will?

How can free will be ignored if it does not exist?

There are several.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Hardened-Hearts

Exodus 7:3.

God specifically states that he will harden Pharaoh’s heart so he can “multiply his signs and wonders in Egypt.”

Deutoronomy 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

For those who take the Bible literally :grinning:- God is clearly taking away the free will of these individuals because he wants to use them to his own ends.

Sorry, Meri, but I find it impossible to believe that a ruler who, after 3 plagues hit his country and his people, would not let the Jews go when their spokesperson, Moses, proves he can stop the plagues.

Frankly, after all those plagues it’s a surprise there were any survivors left in Egypt at all!

You are taking the account too literally. The lessons in Exodus don’t focus on when each plague occurred under which Pharaoh.

Alex, why do you look for God in the Bible? It is not like He is going to pop out between the pages. Seek God in your life, and you will find; seek Him in the small things, the tiniest whispers. Once you find God, then the Bible begins to make sense. If one studies hard enough.