1017

Not nearly as bad, name calling, etc is childish and I expect more out of a President.

Secondly, I was not talking about the current administration, but since you went there, Biden didn’t earn my vote either.

1018

For those who want a nuanced take, rather than a kneejerk, totally partisan overreaction, to what happened in the 1990s when NATO expanded, I found this to be a very informative article.

TL/DR version? As usual, instead of being the crystal clear black and white answers today’s right seems to yearn for, what happened was a lot more nuanced than “NATO broke a promise”.

In short…

The US thought it won the Cold War and wanted to order European security the way it wanted to do so…the mistake Bill Clinton made was thinking he could convince Boris Yeltsin that this wasn’t a threat to Russia. He put off expansion long enough for Yeltsin to win another term in office, but then the Expansion Now faction won out.

Russia thought it defeated communism and the end of the Cold War was a mutually agreed “cease fire” and wanted to be a partner in building European security…and not a junior one. But once those in the West who favored expansion got the ball rolling, Yeltsin was powerless to stop it…but he made his opinion known many times…especially after Kosovo.

The Central European countries quite obviously were hungering for the umbrella of NATO protection, having had a long history of being overrun and used as pawns in Great Power Politics.

Neither the West nor Russia could find a place for Russia in the new order of Europe, despite many tries…with Partnership for Peace, with Russia/NATO cooperation, the NATO/Russia Founding Act…and so Russia began to see the 1990s as a Great Humiliation.

Thus, as usually happens, Europe slid almost inexorably to where we are today…with Russia and the West again as adversaries, in a far more unstable Cold War than existed in the era of 1945-1991…where neither side has the power and influence they had in the past to create a true stalemate…where both sides now are far more entwined with each other than they were in the postwar period.

You can play the blame game…or you can try to learn and understand.

The US, the EU, Russia- none are totally blameless in this matter. But neither are any of them totally to blame.

2 Likes
1019

Russia’s closing their border checkpoints with Ukraine. CNN is saying that US Intelligence told Ukraine they’re coming for Kharkiv within 48 hours.

1020

Good article Jay…but it’s missing something very very importent, which I’ve stated over and over again. EU was formed on November 1, 1993 in Maastricht, Netherlands…and they had other planes in mind.

Do you know what that is Jay? They meaning European elitists wanted to challenge American dollar as world currency and idiots here in American on both sides encouraged it.

1021

Some of the countries expanded into made a lot of sense because they didn’t have long historic ties with Russia then NATO went into Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and a few others which was just pushing it. Thanks for the article it looks like what many are saying Russia feels Ukraine is the red line of this isn’t happening in joining NATO and are prepared to incorporate them by force back into Russia or at the least install a puppet government unless some last minute treaty get’s signed that Ukraine will never join NATO.

1022

We can’t sign such a treaty. Might as well dissolve NATO if we do that.

And unfortunately the relationship with Russia is probably beyond repair for some time.

At least until Putin is gone.

I wonder would this have gone differently had Bush been re-elected.

Instead we got spoiled Americans who felt like a tiny recession that was over well before Election Day was the Worst Thing Ever and why couldn’t Mr. Elitist Bush feel their pain?

If Bush was good at one thing it was foreign policy. Could he have navigated the road to keeping Russia a friend instead of a foe?

1023

I don’t have fever dreams.

So don’t look to me with how to deal with them. That’s your balliwick.

Besides I’ll be dead soon because of the UN’s depopulation scheme. What do I care?

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1024

Is everything a zero sum game with you?

1025

Yes, but you don’t get to make it up.

1026

Do you deny it? Putin is a chess player … this move was thought out looking several moves ahead.

1027

NATO could very well tell Russia that Ukraine will not be a part of NATO and put it in writing if Russia agrees to leave the border and not invade.

It’s fairly obvious now unless they are still people thinking this is just a bluff not only will Russia not let the Ukraine in NATO by invading but if invaded NATO will not enter Ukraine. It seems the best interest for everyone including the Ukraine to stay the status quo. This while thing has been brewing before the maiden protests in 2014 it’s not in the U.S. interest to have Ukraine in NATO and the risks that comes with that, that doesn’t mean NATO has to be dissolved.

1 Like
1028

So what’s the connection to the Ukraine situation? Trump’s admonition regarding funding aside, are those elitist’s using NATO to provoke a war with Russia? Or is Putin using them to his advantage by claiming NATO is threatening Russia?

1029

The EU enjoys having U.S. security protections which means they don’t have to spend as much on military per GDP as we do. Imagine if Canada was three times wealthier than the U.S. and we where in a military treaty with them that meant Canada protects the U.S. with a military blanket so the U.S. can spend it’s money on other projects instead of military spending.

That’s what the EU is getting with NATO, protection without spending little. If Ukraine was in NATO and war broke out with Russia the vast amount of the fighting would be done by the U.S. back by U.S. taxpayers. Germany is a great example the fourth richest country in the world that has exactly double the GDP of Russia yet has zero operating submarines.

1030

But Ukraine is not in NATO, and it’s highly unlikely they ever would be. “Unanimous approval,” remember?

1031

I believe NATO doesn’t even allow countries with border disputes to join. So with Crimea, and Donbas being the way they were, it was highly unlikely Ukraine could ever join.

1032

Correct. “To join NATO, countries must first be offered a membership action plan, a formal invitation and a tailored road map for future NATO membership. To obtain such a plan, prospective new members must first peacefully resolve outstanding international, ethnic and territorial disputes.”

1033

Why are you letting EU off the hook? That’s where the real blame lays.

1034

Wasn’t possible. EU wanted Ukraine vast resources, that and they pitted American and Russia against one another for their own gains.

Again real enemy here is European Union.

1035

My God man…Samm think!!!

1036

So Putin pretty much solved the NATO problem with Ukraine back in 2014.

What Putin is doing now is more than just Russia’s mistrust of NATO. Judging by Putin’s speech, this is Russian imperialism.