Division and Unification

Optrader · 2021-10-01T02:17:54.580Z

Meriweather:

Optrader:

And where May I find the Will and way of God and he teachings of Christ that I may follow them?

I am Catholic. You have already made it perfectly clear you won’t go that route. Therefore I’ll recommend Orthodox or Coptic.

As far as I know, I am the only fundamentalist in this forum. I have not been here in months except for checking in once in awhile and upon reading a few posts in the RF, I read your opinion that fundamentalists have really messed things up. I have been here since 2008 and I know you have been here even longer. In all the years we have gone back and forth, I haves never believed you are mean spirited, quite the opposite in fact. I think you are one of the kindest souls in this forum, but honestly I thought that comment was thoughtless. Not as in rude, but literally made without thought. I wasn’t offended as much as surprised because usually you think about what you post. I don’t always agree with you, perhaps seldom, but I have always respected your willingness to defend what you believe, but I find it very confusing and contradictory to Gods word.

It seems very counterproductive to recommend that a Christian could learn more about Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, by studying with Jewish Rabbis who deny Jesus is the son of God to begin with and if he’s not the son of God, he couldn’t have performed all those miracles and he certainly couldn’t have died on the cross to pay for mans sin and then rise 3 days after burial. What then are we going to learn from Godless people about God? Nothing! They will deny everything about Christ, I believe that is very confusing. This is what messes things up, not fundamentalism.

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T02:47:54.354Z

[quote=“Optrader, post:36, topic:240105”]
I read your opinion that fundamentalists have really messed things up. I have been here since 2008 and I know you have been here even longer. In all the years we have gone back and forth, I haves never believed you are mean spirited, quite the opposite in fact. I think you are one of the kindest souls in this forum, but honestly I thought that comment was thoughtless. Not as in rude, but literally made without thought. [/quote]

It was made not only with thought, but with experience. One quarter of the American population believe the entire Bible should be taken literally. This is not a problem for people of deep faith because they take all the lessons to heart as well.

On the other hand, there are those who cannot take every story literally and it is a great stumbling stone to them taking in the lessons. For example, since they cannot believe in a literal seven-day creation, a young earth, or a planet wide flood, they toss the entire book, thinking if the book is so wrong about the age of the earth and a planet wide flood, it must be wrong about everything.

I am passionate about explaining the lessons and showing how in the original Hebrew (or Greek or Latin) the original authors were making points that get lost in the English translation, especially as definitions of many English words have evolved over time. In the English translations, many believe the God of the Old Testament comes across as cruel and temperamental. This is precisely why I recommend scholarly rabbis whose first language is Hebrew should be teaching the Old Testament to everyone. They can bridge the chasms between how a story comes across in Hebrew versus how it comes across in modern English.

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T03:01:39.548Z

Optrader:

What then are we going to learn from Godless people about God? Nothing! They will deny everything about Christ, I believe that is very confusing. This is what messes things up, not fundamentalism.

Jews are not a Godless people. They have a passionate belief in one God and hold Him close to their hearts. As we all know, Jesus was also human, and Jews are adamant that God is not human. Jews and Christians will never agree on this point, but this should not block Christian understanding of the Old Testament and Jewish beliefs. Actually, it gives Christians a better understanding of the New Testament and why Jesus taught as he did and performed the works that he did. He is a beautiful overlay of the Old Testament.

I am not saying Fundamentalists need this understanding of the Old Testament, but I am saying that atheists would benefit (and benefit mightily) from it. I am not worried about Fundamentalists. My concern is for atheists.

Optrader · 2021-10-01T14:04:43.967Z

Meriweather:

[quote=“Optrader, post:36, topic:240105”]
I read your opinion that fundamentalists have really messed things up. I have been here since 2008 and I know you have been here even longer. In all the years we have gone back and forth, I haves never believed you are mean spirited, quite the opposite in fact. I think you are one of the kindest souls in this forum, but honestly I thought that comment was thoughtless. Not as in rude, but literally made without thought. [/quote]

It was made not only with thought, but with experience. One quarter of the American population believe the entire Bible should be taken literally. This is not a problem for people of deep faith because they take all the lessons to heart as well.

On the other hand, there are those who cannot take every story literally and it is a great stumbling stone to them taking in the lessons. For example, since they cannot believe in a literal seven-day creation, a young earth, or a planet wide flood, they toss the entire book, thinking if the book is so wrong about the age of the earth and a planet wide flood, it must be wrong about everything.

I am passionate about explaining the lessons and showing how in the original Hebrew (or Greek or Latin) the original authors were making points that get lost in the English translation, especially as definitions of many English words have evolved over time. In the English translations, many believe the God of the Old Testament comes across as cruel and temperamental. This is precisely why I recommend scholarly rabbis whose first language is Hebrew should be teaching the Old Testament to everyone. They can bridge the chasms between how a story comes across in Hebrew versus how it comes across in modern English.

I notice you claim that only the incredulous beliefs of fundamentalists may be stumbling stones that keep people from accepting the truths of the Bible. Does this line of thinking apply to the belief that a wafer and jug of wine are transformed into the actual human flesh and blood of the creator by the prayer of a fallen human being? What would the science you tout reveal of the wafer and wine after a priests prayer as opposed to before his prayer? Might such a belief be a stumbling block to the ignorant masses? How about if such a belief was accompanied by threat of being burned at the stake and/or permanently being cut off from God for all eternity by yet another fallen human being if it was denied?

How about those beliefs that we share? What is the science that allows for the sun to stand still and even go backward? Part the Red Sea and dry the ground underneath? Cause the walls of Jericho to come tumbling down? If you see these as just more of those Old Testament fables that fundamentalists need to study with Rabbis to understand, how about those New Testament stories? Did Jesus really walk on water? Turn water into wine? Heal a man blind from birth with spit and mud? Feed thousands from one tiny lunch sack? Raise a man who had been dead and decaying four days from the dead?

For that matter, did Jesus himself actually rise from the grave after being dead three days? (You certainly aren’t going to have this truth explained by any Rabbi) What is the science that explains ANY of these things? Believing something without being able to PROVE it to others is a good basic definition of faith, and your church certainly has many things you accept on faith that other churches don’t share.

Any, or perhaps all of these things are stumbling blocks to unbelievers. Do you not think it may be confusing to them as to why Christians who claim to worship the same God can’t even agree on what his truth is? God never changes and neither does his truth. Neither does his Word. But neither does mans nature. Gods word says our hearts are DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS AND DESPERATELY WICKED, who can know it? What is the measuring stick man may use to keep him from being deceived? How May we know that we are obeying Gods will?

You believe your priests and especially your high priest are the receptacles of truth and tell people they CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH! They need “educated” people to explain it to them. Your priests, like the priests of Old Testament times are the mediators between God and man. Jesus death, burial and resurrection as our high priest made the priesthood obsolete. We no longer need mediators to go to God for us. The New Testament says we are Kings and Priests of ourselves. We are invited to Boldly enter into the throne room of God and bring our confessions and prayers directly to our high priest…This is the truth the Catholic Church doesn’t want people to know and why they have worked so hard to discredit the Bible and convince the peasants they can’t understand it.

You think I bash Catholic priests but I’ll call out ANYONE who perverts and subverts the word of God for their own purpose and the non Catholic world is just as full of them. People like Joel Osteen and Rick Warren, Jimmy Swaggart, Creflo Dollar and countless other TV evangelists who have gotten rich and live like kings by convincing sheep to listen to them instead of obeying the plain, unchanging word of God…

Bill.in.PA · 2021-10-01T14:35:52.851Z

The world has been turned upside down in recent decades.

The US fought World War II to save Christian civilization from the Nazis. The Cold War was to save the world from god-less Communism.

The Soviet Union locked up and killed millions of Christians for going to church or openly opposing militant atheism. Churches were destroyed or converted to factories, stables, etc.

Now it has flipped. Russia has rebuilt its churches and abandoned state atheism. Western countries are now the ones closing and vandalizing churches. Russia and eastern European countries are now considered uniquely evil by western elites since they have not abandoned traditional Christian morality.

Differences between Christians become less important if we all end up sharing the same gulags.

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T14:48:06.197Z

Optrader:

and tell people they CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!

This is not true. Not once has anyone said this to us in school or church.

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T14:55:26.364Z

Optrader:

I notice you claim that only the incredulous beliefs of fundamentalists may be stumbling stones that keep people from accepting the truths of the Bible. Does this line of thinking apply to the belief that a wafer and jug of wine are transformed into the actual human flesh and blood of the creator by the prayer of a fallen human being? What would the science you tout reveal of the wafer and wine after a priests prayer as opposed to before his prayer? Might such a belief be a stumbling block to the ignorant masses?

First, I don’t refer to anyone as ‘ignorant masses’; that is degrading. Second, we are taught the Eucharists retains all elements of bread and wine. It is a matter of faith that Jesus is present as he promised.

Meanwhile, some Fundamentalist do go against the science of a young earth. The Eucharist does not go against scientific reality. Young Earth does, despite science, despite passages in the Old Testament where a ‘day’ is used as a long period time, not just 24 hours. If you were to say, “In my grandfather’s day…” do you really expect people to conclude your grandfather lived only one day?

Catholics, for centuries, have left science to scientists and stick with teaching faith, and that has worked well.

SixFoot · 2021-10-01T14:58:51.272Z

@Meriweather , I just wanted to repeat how respected and valued your views are here. A lot of us greatly appreciate these conversations with you.

Optrader · 2021-10-01T15:02:10.370Z

Bill.in.PA:

The world has been turned upside down in recent decades.

The US fought World War II to save Christian civilization from the Nazis. The Cold War was to save the world from god-less Communism.

The Soviet Union locked up and killed millions of Christians for going to church or openly opposing militant atheism. Churches were destroyed or converted to factories, stables, etc.

Now it has flipped. Russia has rebuilt its churches and abandoned state atheism. Western countries are now the ones closing and vandalizing churches. Russia and eastern European countries are now considered uniquely evil by western elites since they have not abandoned traditional Christian morality.

Differences between Christians become less important if we all end up sharing the same gulags.

Jesus said as he was hated, Christians will be hated for his names sake. Here in the US, Christians are not being killed or jailed for their faith, YET, but we are being silenced, discredited and ridiculed now, so that when the real persecution comes, society will already have been conditioned to not only accept it, but to believe we deserve it. Absolutely, Christianity is spreading in other parts around the world and it isn’t completely dead here either. Jesus said the Gospel will be preached and spread around the world before he returns and I believe the United States was raised up at just the right time in history to spearhead that spreading. Today, America has pretty much forsaken God and we are paying a heavy price as evidenced by the Satanic imbecile in the White House and the brain dead millions that support him and his agenda.
Buckle up- It’s going to get real bumpy before the ride ends…

Bill.in.PA · 2021-10-01T15:49:02.602Z

My pastor comes from western Ukraine, and he grew up in the Soviet Union. Our church was outlawed and went underground for 40 years. He tells stories about holding services in secret with people on the look out for police.

All religions were persecuted. Being seen attending religious services would mean that you lose your job, lose the ability to travel or live a city, and your children would not get into college. Educating your children in religion was illegal.

Catholics and Baptists were among those singled out for especially harsh treatment. Many were executed or sent to prisons in Siberia.

It is especially chilling to see how easily governments in the US and Canada have ended civil liberties under the pretext of COVID controls. Persecution of Christians is coming if we do not change course.

Polish Pastor Chases Cops Out of Church on Easter Weekend: ‘Get Out! You Nazis!’ - YouTube

Optrader · 2021-10-01T15:49:44.513Z

Meriweather:

Optrader:

and tell people they CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!

This is not true. Not once has anyone said this to us in school or church.

I was channeling Jack Nicholson there, but it got lost in the typing.

Not handle isn’t quite the sentiment, but not understand. Although I can’t help being pictured, upon gaining understanding from a Rabbi, like a child that just learned the Easter Bunny isn’t real… Children are ignorant Meri, and need to be “taught” by a grown up things they don’t understand….

rp5x5 · 2021-10-01T15:56:19.386Z

It is true that it is absurd to water down teachings to make them more palatable for the imagined, average person, but it is equally absurd to present certain things in a way that makes the average, intellectual-type person who believes in science, to think religious people are delusional, misguided idiots who believe fairy tales.

At the same time, it is arrogant to present science as anything more than a materialistic, completely primitive understanding of reality as it is. Science cannot explain anything and dogmatically ridicules anything not called science.

In truth, schismatic division in science is just as prevalent as division, between different religions, as well as within the same sect.

Unity is important, but unity can be of different types–from a good kind of unity to an evil kind of unity.

The Buddhist Sanskrit term,“Icchantika,” is translated as “people of incorrigible disbelief,” and not until the Saddharma Pundarika sutra did the Buddha Shakyamuni ever announce that they too could attain salvation, reach the state of Bodhisattva and even Buddhahood, either this lifetime or in a future lifetime.

The time period known as the latter day refers to a period of time 2000 years after the passing of a Buddha’s turning wheel of the law. After the period of the real and then, the counterfeit dharma passes, Buddhism becomes lost to the beings–the Latter Day. When the time is right, a Buddha returns.

The importance of the “time” and 'capacity of the people" determines the fertility of the seed of buddhahood within the people.

Strike when the iron is hot.

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T16:46:18.759Z

Thank you, SixFoot. I enjoy the study of religion, but fear I know just enough to make everyone mad. Including Catholics.

Optrader · 2021-10-01T18:46:36.762Z

Meriweather:

Optrader:

I notice you claim that only the incredulous beliefs of fundamentalists may be stumbling stones that keep people from accepting the truths of the Bible. Does this line of thinking apply to the belief that a wafer and jug of wine are transformed into the actual human flesh and blood of the creator by the prayer of a fallen human being? What would the science you tout reveal of the wafer and wine after a priests prayer as opposed to before his prayer? Might such a belief be a stumbling block to the ignorant masses?

First, I don’t refer to anyone as ‘ignorant masses’; that is degrading. Second, we are taught the Eucharists retains all elements of bread and wine. It is a matter of faith that Jesus is present as he promised.

Meanwhile, some Fundamentalist do go against the science of a young earth. The Eucharist does not go against scientific reality. Young Earth does, despite science, despite passages in the Old Testament where a ‘day’ is used as a long period time, not just 24 hours. If you were to say, “In my grandfather’s day…” do you really expect people to conclude your grandfather lived only one day?

Catholics, for centuries, have left science to scientists and stick with teaching faith, and that has worked well.

“Ignorant masses” is only degrading if you look down on them, which I don’t believe you do. It is , however, not only accurate but exactly as those in power regard people. Mass psychology has been understood and used for a long time by powerful people to stay in power. It is made much easier though if the powerful can keep the masses they wish to control from being exposed to education. How do you think Democrats get so many young people to vote for them? By having control over the public school system for decades. This also explains why they keep wanting to get their claws on our kids at a younger and younger age. The younger they are when their little brains and ability to reason are destroyed, the easier it is for them to be manipulated and remain as ignorant.

For many centuries, at least in western history, the peasants were illiterate. By design or circumstance doesn’t much matter because the result was the same. Powerful people maintained power because the masses had no access to any point of view other than what was forced upon them. I can’t think of a more accurate way to describe the situation.

So, a young earth goes against Science but the Eucharist doesn’t?

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T20:59:21.940Z

Optrader:

So, a young earth goes against Science but the Eucharist doesn’t?

Both people of faith and atheists scientists agree the elements of the bread and wine remain the same. The nourishment is spiritual, and many Catholics can tell you the blessings that spiritual nourishment from the living Christ brings. Science may not be able to tell us it is the living Christ, but it is what Catholics have always believed–and with good reason I feel.

Optrader · 2021-10-01T23:17:34.607Z

Meriweather:

Optrader:

So, a young earth goes against Science but the Eucharist doesn’t?

Both people of faith and atheists scientists agree the elements of the bread and wine remain the same. The nourishment is spiritual, and many Catholics can tell you the blessings that spiritual nourishment from the living Christ brings. Science may not be able to tell us it is the living Christ, but it is what Catholics have always believed–and with good reason I feel.

Meri, Jesus said where two or more are gathered in my name, I am among them. This I believe, and I absolutely understand the need for Spiritual nourishment even above physical nourishment. I am truly glad you find it.

For me, I need something rock solid I can count on and since I can’t have a one on one discussion or question and answer session with the Lord I turn to the one thing that always gives me strength and hope, that being his word. I am going through a tremendous battle right now and when I read your post I took it as flippant and personal. I know you are neither of these things, but nevertheless I reacted the way I am too prone to do, which is to come out guns blazing looking for someone to take my frustrations out on.

As I publicly took it out on you, I publicly offer a sincere apology. I’ll try not to be such a total jerk in the future…

rp5x5 · 2021-10-01T23:33:08.560Z

Optrader:

the need for Spiritual nourishment even above physical nourishment. I am truly glad you find it.

The recent Netflix series “Midnight Mass” as bizarre as it is, revives a whole “new” dark, weird interpretation of the Eucharist. Silly but entertaining.

Worth seeing anyway.

Optrader · 2021-10-01T23:40:40.123Z

rp5x5:

Optrader:

the need for Spiritual nourishment even above physical nourishment. I am truly glad you find it.

The recent Netflix series “Midnight Mass” as bizarre as it is, revives a whole “new” dark, weird interpretation of the Eucharist. Silly but entertaining.

Worth seeing anyway.

Thanks, I could use something something entertaining. Maybe it will drive away my frustration for awhile…

Meriweather · 2021-10-01T23:55:43.777Z

Optrader:

I am going through a tremendous battle right now and when I read your post I took it as flippant and personal.

I am sorry to hear about your own battle, and you are immediately in my prayers. Also, no apology needed. I recognized then I had carelessly trod on a deeply held belief/faith like the proverbial bull in the China shop. You immediately presented your side, and it has been very good for me to hear. We both strongly believe in faith, and I’ve always considered you one of my brethren in Christ, which we are and remain even though we see things so very differently. That’s not bad.

rp5x5 · 2021-10-01T23:55:57.661Z

Just don’t take it seriously but it does invoke funny thoughts.