Bible study thread

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-18T04:12:15.980Z

John 6:8-9 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, says to him,
"There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fish: but what are they among so many? "

We don’t know how Andrew came to know this. Did the disciples ask around to find out how much food was among the crowd? Had he happened upon this one boy a little earlier and spotted his haversack and asked,
“What do you have in there?” ?
But we read that there were five barley loaves and two fish in the hands of one particular boy.

Firstly, the first month of the Jewish year was called Abib (green ears) because it was the month the first grain crop (barley) was ready for harvest.
“Barley was the first crop to ripen in the spring in Canaan and Egypt. In fact, the Hebrew month of Abib (“green ears”) has direct reference to the ripening of barley in that month.”

godskingdom.org

Chapter 2: The Barley Harvest :: God's Kingdom Ministries

Within these pages you will discover the awesome truth about God, our Father, His Word, His Plan for the ages, and His Creation through His Son, that you most likely have not heard elsewhere.

This was also the month for the Passover on the 14th of Abib/Nisan, which John motes was imminent.

Secondly, there is some biblical symbolism to be found in these two verses.
This is, on the spiritual level, a parable about the beginning of the harvest.
Loaves = bread = God’s word.
Five is the number of grace.
Fish represent men gathered by fishers of men.
Two is the number of truthful reliable witness.
This huge physically-hungry crowd would be sustained from five loaves and two fish. Likewise, the spiritually-hungry in the beginning harvest of the Christian age would be sustained by the word of God’s grace testified to them by two corroborating witnesses.
Jesus sends out his truthful disciples two by two with the word of God’s grace. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Just as Jesus here blessed and distributed a limited volume of bread and a limited number of fish and by these managed to easily feed this huge crowd, so Jesus also blessed a limited number of disciples and a limited volume of God’s word, but by these has managed to meet the spiritual hunger of as many in the world who have come to him, with many more heavenly words and witnesses in the world now than when he started in 30 AD.

Guvnah · 2019-12-18T05:10:18.053Z

Paul_Thomson:

There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fish

I like to contemplate what it must have been like to be that boy. Maybe that sack of food was supposed to feed his family that day. Most likely he had SOME purpose for it. Maybe the kid was a younger brother of one of the apostles.

Suddenly a bunch of men are pointing at him, saying he has food. I expect he felt helpless. Scared.

Maybe Jesus gave him a reassuring glance that changed his worries. Maybe Jesus spoke to him quietly and reassured him that everything would be alright.

I can imagine after seeing the result of relinquishing those loves and fish, he would have a lot of interest in this guy, Jesus. We know that each apostle had disciples (and some of those disciples also had disciples, etc.) Maybe the kid became one of those disciples. Perhaps later, a bishop. Perhaps later, a martyr.

All we really know is that he was some kid, and Jesus used the food the kid had with him. The rest is left to the imagination.

Meriweather · 2019-12-18T13:35:51.127Z

Paul_Thomson:

John 6:8-9 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, says to him,
"There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fish: but what are they among so many? "

We don’t know how Andrew came to know this. Did the disciples ask around to find out how much food was among the crowd? Had he happened upon this one boy a little earlier and spotted his haversack and asked,
“What do you have in there?” ?
But we read that there were five barley loaves and two fish in the hands of one particular boy.

It is noteworthy that Jesus first turned to Philip who was from that area to ask where food could be found. Apparently food could be found–for a price. Next along comes Andrew who is always bringing people to Jesus.

Ever wonder why the boy wanted to see Jesus? What was going on in his life? Did he know someone who needed healing?

How was the boy carrying his lunch? In those days, certainly not in a paper bag, but, as was common, in a small wicker basket as most Jews did in order to have something kosher to eat. (If traveling Jews carried these baskets, and the Apostles were traveling Jews, it is interesting to note and compare the number of these baskets that were filled at the end of the meal to then number of Apostles and also the number of completion.)

Barley was also considered the food of the beasts…or, the very poor. The fish were no bigger than sardines, the small fish that were easily gathered and pickled (also by the poor).

What I am imagining is that the crowd also had some well-to-do people, people who were also carrying as a matter of course food in their little baskets that probably had something more palatable than barley bread and pickled fish.

It is worth noting, I feel, that the food that was offered came from the poor–and came from a child at that. (A little child shall lead them.)

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-19T04:20:54.455Z

“In those days, certainly not in a paper bag, but, as was common, in a small wicker basket as most Jews did in order to have something kosher to eat. (If traveling Jews carried these baskets, and the Apostles were traveling Jews, it is interesting to note and compare the number of these baskets that were filled at the end of the meal to then number of Apostles and also the number of completion.)”

Yes, it makes sense that others had brought food with them, and those 11 other baskets were likely donated to the boy by those who had been fed, who had already eaten their contents, and whose baskets had been already empty before the miracle, maybe the disciples, or maybe just other grateful diners. But maybe eleven other families went home with filled baskets.
And yes, the end result of the distribution of the word of grace (5 loaves) via the pairs of truthful witnesses (2 fish) would be a completed church (12 baskets full).
Maybe another message of the miracle is that even the most insignificant sacrifices by the most insignificant of donors given to Jesus contribute to the completion of the church.

" What I am imagining is that the crowd also had some well-to-do people, people who were also carrying as a matter of course food in their little baskets that probably had something more palatable than barley bread and pickled fish."

I suspect that the bread and fish were nevertheless the best tasting barley bead and fish the crowd had ever tasted - much like the wine at Cana was the best.

"Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of lights… "

Bill.in.PA · 2019-12-22T23:41:30.281Z

Paul_Thomson:

John 6:8-9 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, says to him,
"There is a boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fish: but what are they among so many? "

Andrew shows is faith and knowledge about the miracle that the prophet Elisha performed:

A man came from Baal-shalishah, bringing food from the first fruits to the man of God: twenty loaves of barley and fresh ears of grain in his sack. Elisha said, “Give it to the people and let them eat.” But his servant said, “How can I set this before a hundred people?” So he repeated, “Give it to the people and let them eat, for thus says the Lord, ‘They shall eat and have some left.’” He set it before them, they ate, and had some left, according to the word of the Lord.
2 Kings 4:42-44

Note that the first fruits is mentioned in Leviticus as a important festival soon after Passover:

. . . bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect . . .
Leviticus 23:10-12

Sounds like another parallel to the Eucharist to me.

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-24T04:28:02.621Z

John 6:10 And Jesus said,
“Make the men sit down.”
Now there was a lot of grass in that place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand."

This reminds me of Psalm 23.
"He makes me lie down in green pastures… "

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-24T04:31:57.165Z

I like that, Bill.in.PA.
We see many types of Jesus in the OT. But the real thing is always greater than the type. Jesus is greater than Elisha. Elisha fed 100 with twenty loaves. Jesus fed 5000+ with five loaves.

Guvnah · 2019-12-24T04:38:49.970Z

Paul_Thomson:

We see many types of Jesus in the OT.

What I wouldn’t give to have been one of the disciples on the road to Emmaeus as Jesus pointed out all the foreshadowings of himself throughout the Scriptures.

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-25T12:33:05.848Z

Bill.in.PA:

Note that the first fruits is mentioned in Leviticus as a important festival soon after Passover:

. . . bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect . . .
Leviticus 23:10-12

I believe Jesus was raised from the dead on the feast of firstfruits, and on that Sunday, after speaking with Mary Magdalene at the tomb, ascended to the Father to be presented before the Father as the first-begotten from the dead, in accordance with the OT levitical law.

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-26T04:42:07.325Z

John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise the fish, as much as they wanted.

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-27T04:59:53.138Z

Paul_Thomson:

John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise the fish, as much as they wanted.

Jesus told them to make the people sit down, and food was distributed to those who obeyed. Does that mean those wandering around restlessly were not served?

Those who ate received not just as much as they needed, but more than they needed. In fact, it seems they wanted more than they could manage to eat.

"Would you like some bread or fish? "
"No, I would like caviar and croissants. "
Those who didn’t express a desire for the food on offer were not given any.

God’s word is what it is. If people would prefer it presented in a more palatable or interesting form from God, their only options are to accept it from God as given, or reject it from God as given.

When we demand God’s message according to some other recipe, there are plenty of cooks who will add this and that, and remove this or that bone, but we risk not getting God’s intended message, but some man’s ear-tickling souffle.

God sets the menu, we can only choose from what he is willing to serve. We don’t get to decide on and edit the menu of spiritual truth. Rev 22:18-19

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-27T05:02:36.155Z

John 6:12 when they were filled, he said to his disciples,
"Gather up the pieces that remain that nothing be lost. "

Paul_Thomson · 2019-12-27T05:13:47.607Z

Has anyone experience Jesus supplying their needs miraculously?

Very soon after be coming a believer I was hitch-hiking through a town and stopped at a Christian book shop. I saw a Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance on sale, reduced from $99 to $20 because the cover was damaged. I said to Jesus
“Lord, that would be really useful for studying the Bible. But I don’t have any money left.”
In my mind someone said,
"Put your hand in your pocket. "
“Why? I have no money.”
“Put your hand in your pocket.”
When I did so, I pulled out a $20 note, and was able to buy the book.

Paul_Thomson · 2020-01-15T01:23:23.710Z

Does this mean Jesus doesn’t like us wasting stuff? Or to take responsibility for losing other people’s stuff? Did he see it as the boy’s bread, and since they had borrowed it from him, they were responsible not to lose any of it, but to return it all to him with the interest God had added?

Doesn’t it rile when you lend something to someone and it comes back broken or not at all, and they expect you simply to bear the cost yourself. It’s my habit to point out the damage and to at least offer to cover the costs of repairs or replacement. On New Years Eve we built a small fire on a beach in Sri Lanka. A family nearby were lighting fireworks, so I asked to borrow their lighter for a few minutes to light our fire. In the process, their lighter broke, so I told him I would go and buy another at the nearby shops. I bought three. One for me and two for him, although he would accept only one. But plenty of people in my life borrow my stuff and break or lose it but say nothing, and I only discover the damage or loss when I suddenly need the item again.

Paul_Thomson · 2020-01-15T01:30:51.224Z

John 6:13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above them that had eaten.

“He who gives to the poor, lends to the Lord”

The boy had given to the poor, and so had lent to the Lord. And “the Lord is no man’s debtor”. A hundred-fold (?) return on the boy’s investment in the kingdom in a few hours.

Guvnah · 2020-01-16T04:27:20.102Z

Glad you resurrected the thread. I want to see it keep going.

Thanks.

Paul_Thomson · 2020-01-16T12:19:47.977Z

John 6:14 then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, "This is, truly, that prophet that should come into the world. "

Which prophet are these men referring to?

" The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken."
Deuteronomy 18:15

" And there has arisen no prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew face to face, in all the signs and the wonders, which Yahweh sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, and in all the mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses showed in the sight of all Israel." Deut. 34:10-12

Paul_Thomson · 2020-01-19T05:04:32.509Z

Thanks back.

Paul_Thomson · 2020-01-21T02:59:36.375Z

John 6:15 “When Jesus therefore perceived that they were going to come and seize him by force, that they might make him a king, he departed again into the mountain himself alone.”

A forced coronation? How does that even make sense? But that’s what they had in mind.

Let me draw together a few texts here.

Gen. 16:13 and he said to Abraham, "Know for sure that your seed shall be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them, and they shall afflict them: four hundred years. "

Ex. 12:40-41 "Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was 430 years.
And it came to pass at the end of the 430 years, even the self-same day, it came to pass that all the hosts of Yahweh went out from the land of Egypt.

Acts 7:23-30 " And when Moses was full 40 years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him the was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
For he supposed his brothers would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them…
29 Then Moses fled at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Midian…
30 And when 40 years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mt. Sinai an angel of Yahweh in a flame of fire in a bush."

Moses knew he was destined to deliver the Israelites, but Satan succeeded with Moses where he failed with Jesus. Satan used Moses righteous indignation at the oppression of his people to trigger Moses into action ten years early. The 400 years was not expired. This mistake gave the Israelites thirty extra years of bondage.

Jesus was tempted to shortcircuit God’s timetable. But he submitted to the Father’s timetable, and waited to be crowned after his death on resurrection Sunday.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, " Touch me not: for I am not yet ascended to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Zec. 3 " And I saw Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of Yahweh, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. … Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments…
Take away the filthy garments from him…
Let them set a fair mitre upon his head…
For behold, I will bring forth my servant, the branch…
And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. "

Matt. 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "All hail. "
And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Jesus was not going to let men shortcircuit God’s path to victory. So he dismissed the crowd and began walking up the mountain. No doubt some followed and badgered him to reconsider, but he just kept on walking until the last follower could climb no more. Jesus stayed up above the madding crowd and prayed into the night.

Piper · 2020-01-21T10:48:56.238Z

Paul_Thomson:

Zec. 3 " And I saw Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of Yahweh, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. … Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments…
Take away the filthy garments from him…
Let them set a fair mitre upon his head…
For behold, I will bring forth my servant, the branch…
And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. "

The Day of the Lord was an historical event in time, not at the “end of time” (“end of time” is not a Biblical phrase).

Prophet Isaiah predicted that the Day in which the Lord would remove the filth of Zion and cleanse Israel would be the time of judgment upon Israel. Is 4:1.

This is also foretold by the prophet Zechariah as the time when Israel would look on the one that had been pierced and mourn. Zechariah also stated in 13 that “in that day,” - the day in which they would look on the one that was pierced, there would be great mourning. The mourning was not repentance, but judgment. The one they had slain was coming in judgment to avenge

Scripture calls the judgment of Israel for shedding the blood of God’s martyrs, “The Day of The Lord.”

Jesus said the guilt went all the way back to Abel, at the beginning of creation. He said "guilt for all the blood shed, “from the foundation of the world”, was laid at the feet of Israel.

Matthew 24 "…they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

John 5:19 "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

Jehovah had come in judgment many times in the past. In times past, how had the Father judged? How had God’s Son seen His Father judge?

A few examples: At the destruction of Babylon by the Assyrians in Is 12…it was called “The Day of the Lord.” Jehovah rode on a “swift cloud,” and came into Egypt to judge the wicked. Isaiah 19. By the Medes, Is 13, it was called “The Day of Jehovah.” Jehovah coming against Babylon in Is 6. They were events in history. “The Day of the Lord was an event in history.”

Like Father, Like Son…On Clouds of Glory. That event happened in the first century 2000 years ago when Jerusalem was destroyed.