Are we, today, responsible for the Crucifixion?

[DaMan]

@Meriweather

Agree. And if the Conscious Observer is indeed infinite, it may explain why each of us can only perceive a tiny portion of Him. Could that be a reason that mankind has pursued religion, and account for the variances in our beliefs and religions as well?

In other words, “differences of religion arose due to different experiences and beliefs about “God””. That’s not an explanation. You might as well say different religions arose because people had different religions.

[DaMan]

@Guvnah

That’s not what I said at all.

So you think we should open doors to “human fusion” and abandon “child like faith”? What exactly are you saying?

@Guvnah

If we open the door to human “fusion” and other influences on one point, we illogically must do so for every point. And in doing so, we allow for the possibility that the entirety of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection is a myth.

Do not be afraid of having a childlike faith. We can never understand it all. Trying to place precise definitions and

Instead of rolling your eyes (not very jesus like), why not have a discussion?

[Konssurvative1]

It is my belief that God was responsible. Jesus needed to be crucified…so he can show us that there is glory at the end of our time on earth. Just like Judas had to betray Judas in order for Jesus to be crucified. The he died because we sinned is not congruent with what I have been taught. He died to save us…not because of us.

[Meriweather]

@Guvnah

That’s not what I said at all.

Agree. In these kinds of faith situations I tend to picture a bubble and remember that one can transverse it only so far before it begins to curve back in on itself. I understand being at that point in the bubble and the wisdom of recognizing when we have gone as far as possible. Still, can’t help that little niggling feeling within of, “Maybe we can go just a bit farther?” That is why I asked you and what you thought. Thus, I would be foolish not to take advice I sought. However, I do have to admit that little niggling feeling is still present.

[DaMan]

@Meriweather

Agree. In these kinds of faith situations I tend to picture a bubble and remember that one can transverse it only so far before it begins to curve back in on itself. I understand being at that point in the bubble and the wisdom of recognizing when we have gone as far as possible. Still, can’t help that little niggling feeling within of, “Maybe we can go just a bit farther?” That is why I asked you and what you thought. Thus, I would be foolish not to take advice I sought. However, I do have to admit that little niggling feeling is still present.

There’s a difference between reaching a limit of understanding with avoiding a thought process because it threatens your faith

@Guvnah

If we open the door to human “fusion” and other influences on one point, we illogically must do so for every point. And in doing so, we allow for the possibility that the entirety of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection is a myth.

[Meriweather]

@Konssurvative1

Just like Judas had to betray Judas in order for Jesus to be crucified.

Couldn’t the crucifixion simply have occurred with an official ordering the arrest of Jesus? Why do you feel it required a betrayal from one of his inner circle?

[Konssurvative1]

Jesus told the disciples he would be betrayed. In order for crucifixion to happen. Judas had to identify Christ. He did so with the kiss. It sealed Christs fate.

[Guvnah]

@DaMan

So you think we should open doors to “human fusion” and abandon “child like faith”? What exactly are you saying?

I was addressing someone who holds a strong Christian faith rooted in canonical scripture. What she suggested (or at least what I took it to mean) was to consider that the canonical scripture upon which we base our concepts of atonement, forgiveness of sins and other related issues could actually be some “fusion” of human concepts rather than Spirit-breathed Word of God.

It’s fine to do that if you’re willing to abandon the roots of Christianity (and thereby Christianity itself). I doubt Meri is ready to do that, and my statement about that (which, by the way, was only one statement that was a part of a larger explanation) was a reminder about those foundations.

@DaMan

Instead of rolling your eyes (not very jesus like) …

1. There is hardly a thread on the Hannity boards where someone doesn’t take a statement out of context and try to blow it up into something it was never intended to be. I roll my eye at them all.

2. I find it disingenuous when non-Christians pretend to lecture others about what Christianity or what Jesus says/does/teaches. In fact, Jesus did more than just roll his eyes at the pharisees and scribes who chased him around trying to undermine what he was doing and teaching. (And I have a prediction of what you’re going to do in response to this statement – at least if you continue to follow the standard board template here.)

[Guvnah]

@Konssurvative1

The he died because we sinned is not congruent with what I have been taught. He died to save us…not because of us.

Well, to me, he’s saving us from sin. Our sin. I don’t compartmentalize it.

[Guvnah]

@Konssurvative1

Jesus told the disciples he would be betrayed. In order for crucifixion to happen. Judas had to identify Christ. He did so with the kiss. It sealed Christs fate.

Agreed.

In the song from the musical “Jesus Christ Superstar” there is a line, “Why’d you pick such a backward time and such a strange land? If you’d come today you would have reached a whole nation. Israel in 4BC had no mass communication.”

I believe God chose the time and place he did because the people doing what needed to happen – by their own free will – were going to do it then. God doesn’t make us do what he needs to fulfill his plan. He uses what we do as part of his plan. He didn’t force Mary to say yes. He didn’t force Judas to betray Jesus. He didn’t put Herod and Pilate and Caiapahs into Jesus’ life. They all did what they did when they did it, and Jesus entered into the middle of it all, and God’s plan was fulfilled.

[DaMan]

@Guvnah

• There is hardly a thread on the Hannity boards where someone doesn’t take a statement out of context and try to blow it up into something it was never intended to be. I roll my eye at them all.
• I find it disingenuous when non-Christians pretend to lecture others about what Christianity or what Jesus says/does/teaches. In fact, Jesus did more than just roll his eyes at the pharisees and scribes who chased him around trying to undermine what he was doing and teaching. (And I have a prediction of what you’re going to do in response to this statement – at least if you continue to follow the standard board template here.)

I asked you a simple question. If you only want to talk to Christians then just say so. I havent lectured you, I asked you a question. So again, next time instead of rolling your eyes and attacking people for asking you questions. The only one blowing this up is you with your passive aggression.

Rolls eyes*

[DaMan]

@Guvnah

I was addressing someone who holds a strong Christian faith rooted in canonical scripture. What she suggested (or at least what I took it to mean) was to consider that the canonical scripture upon which we base our concepts of atonement, forgiveness of sins and other related issues could actually be some “fusion” of human concepts rather than Spirit-breathed Word of God.

It’s fine to do that if you’re willing to abandon the roots of Christianity (and thereby Christianity itself). I doubt Meri is ready to do that, and my statement about that (which, by the way, was only one statement that was a part of a larger explanation) was a reminder about those foundations.

You dont have to abandon Christianity itself if you do that. How so? You’ve only asserted it as so.

[DaMan]

@Guvnah

I find it disingenuous when non-Christians pretend to lecture others about what Christianity or what Jesus says/does/teaches.

I find it disingenuous to pretend that just because you are Christian that everything you say about christianity is the end all truth, not to be questioned or discussed with those of alternate viewpoints.

[DaMan]

@Guvnah

There is hardly a thread on the Hannity boards where someone doesn’t take a statement out of context and try to blow it up into something it was never intended to be. I roll my eye at them all.

All I did was ask you a simple question. Why us that so bad?

[DaMan]

@DaMan

Are you saying we shouldnt open doors because it might make us lose faith?

@Guvnah

Rolling my eyes.

Now you’re exactly saying that

@Guvnah

It’s fine to do that if you’re willing to abandon the roots of Christianity (and thereby Christianity itself).

You’re literally saying doing so means you have to abandon faith. It’s simply not true.

[DaMan]

@Guvnah

If we open the door to human “fusion” and other influences on one point, we illogically must do so for every point. And in doing so, we allow for the possibility that the entirety of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection is a myth.

See.

Why is it that religious people here always deny what they say?

[Konssurvative1]

In essence that is what I was saying. You said it so much better.

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Konssurvative1

In essence that is what I was saying. You said it so much better.

Please use the quote function.

[Meriweather]

@Guvnah

Well, to me, he’s saving us from sin. Our sin. I don’t compartmentalize it.

Spending so much time learning to diagram sentences and dissect things may have had the side effect where I have, over time, began dissecting and examining Christ’s life part by part. Are pieces now is disarray?

1. Jesus lived a life free of sin. He taught to discern the Father’s will and to follow it. He taught repentance (turning away from sin) and to the Father. He taught that no one comes to him (and to me that meant his teachings as well) unless the Father draws him. Once, there, Jesus sheep listen to his voice and follow his commands.
   Following his command to turn away from sin saved me from committing who knows how many sins. Listening/trying to discern the Father’s will placed me on who knows how many paths where sin was also avoided.

2. In presenting these teachings, Jesus ran afoul of the authorities of his time. They wanted to stop Jesus from teaching and redirect people to offering Temple sacrifices for forgiveness after they sin.

3. Jesus saw the handwriting on the wall. The authorities were so ticked off they would go to any lengths to stop him. Had his message gotten through, reached enough? Could he cease and return to peaceful carpentry? He thought not. Unless a seed fell to the ground and died, it could not produce fruit. In order for the word to reach me down through the ages, he had to die. Indeed, I have always believed Jesus died for our/my sake–even more than he died for the people of his own time who had had a chance to hear him.

4. Jesus, instead of a bowl containing cereal, became our sin offering. Whenever I sin, I return to what Jesus taught (Repentance) and discerning and then following the will of the Father.

5. Confessing sins, asking for forgiveness, making the restitution it is possible for me to make–and then relying on Jesus to fix what I cannot–to me seems to me the punishment (not death on a cross) that Jesus undertakes for me. His punishment is cleaning up my messes. Compare that to his gift to me/us where he lays down his life so that the Word reaches me/us.

As you see, in this dissection/diagram, I cannot find a place (nor could I in Jesus’ own teachings) that the Father had to punish the son. I see it more as my own sins punishing Jesus today because of the work I cause him. That is why I wondered if you saw something in the Gospels and that Jesus taught about punishment being directed at him by the Father that has passed me by.

[Konssurvative1]

No.

10 char.