Are we, today, responsible for the Crucifixion?

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T04:54:19.919Z

DaMan:

You dont have to abandon Christianity itself if you do that. How so?

If you toss out the scriptural foundation – the belief that it is the actual Spirit-breathed Word and not just a mere story – then you’ve abandoned the only Truth, and anything else becomes someone else’s concoction.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T04:55:12.049Z

DaMan:

I find it disingenuous to pretend that just because you are Christian that everything you say about christianity is the end all truth

I didn’t say that.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T05:02:24.053Z

DaMan:

See.

Why is it that religious people here always deny what they say?

You are getting on my nerves.

I have explained to you in a subsequent reply directly addressed to you why taking that one sentence out of the context of the rest of the reply (and absent the context I share with the person to whom I was directly addressing in that reply) is a misinterpretation of what I was saying there. You even snipped a tiny piece of that reply to you and misapplied what even that was saying.

To ask what you just asked tells me you’re not really reading anything I’m writing, but just looking for argument and conflict.

I’ll excuse the broadbrush statement about what religious people here ALWAYS do. This time. But it does tell me more about your intentions here.

Like I already said, you’re going to have to change the way you approach discussion with me. I don’t suffer your style well at all.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T05:11:25.450Z

Meriweather:

Jesus, instead of a bowl containing cereal, became our sin offering.

Meriweather:

As you see, in this dissection/diagram, I cannot find a place (nor could I in Jesus’ own teachings) that the Father had to punish the son.

Your first statement answers the second (in the way I see it.) Don’t forget, I earlier completely sidestepped the word “punished”. For one thing, it can mean a ton of different things.

Meriweather:

I see it more as my own sins punishing Jesus today because of the work I cause him.

Jesus died for our sins. If you want to call that punishing him, so be it. I don’t want to get hung up on that word.

But let me challenge you with this question: You initial post challenged the notion that we (you, and I, and everyone else) are responsible for Christ’s crucifixion. Yet now you are saying that your sin “punishes” (as in crucifixion) Jesus. Have you changed your view since the initial post?

AlexMcAlpine · 2019-01-07T06:14:42.240Z

Konssurvative1:

No.

10 char.

Should have expected that response from someone who can’t spell.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:14:11.750Z

Guvnah:

You reworded what I said into something I did not say, and then expected to answer for it.

No. I asked you a question for clarification. Drop the attitude.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:15:06.763Z

Guvnah:

And I certainly didn’t say that either.

No. You passively insinuate it with your statement about atheists “lecturing” you about Christianity. It’s pretty transparent.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:15:39.012Z

Guvnah:

You are getting on my nerves.

Then quit attacking me personally and projecting my motives.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T13:19:29.939Z

DaMan:

Then quit attacking me personally

I didn’t do that.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:19:34.393Z

Guvnah:

If you toss out the scriptural foundation – the belief that it is the actual Spirit-breathed Word and not just a mere story – then you’ve abandoned the only Truth, and anything else becomes someone else’s concoction.

That doesnt explain anything. I asked you WHY. Not to repeat what you said. Much of the bible is man made. Not everyone is a literalist. If all your saying is “if you believe the bible is a man made story and nothing inspired by God” - well no kidding. The sky is blue. I dont think Meri is dumb enough to believe that you can be Christian if all of the bible is man made story.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:19:48.909Z

Guvnah:

I didn’t do that.

Of course you did.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:20:40.649Z

Guvnah:

I’ll excuse the broadbrush statement

You’ve been broadbrushing from the start with your statement about atheists. Jesus taught humility too.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:21:38.921Z

Guvnah:

Like I already said, you’re going to have to change the way you approach discussion with me. I don’t suffer your style well at all.

All I did was ask you a simple question. You rolled your eyes in response. Look in the mirror.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T13:27:24.575Z

DaMan:

All I did was ask you a simple question.

Rolling my eyes.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:28:10.187Z

Guvnah:

Rolling my eyes.

Not very Jesus like…

Meriweather · 2019-01-07T13:45:15.558Z

Guvnah:

But let me challenge you with this question: You initial post challenged the notion that we (you, and I, and everyone else) are responsible for Christ’s crucifixion. Yet now you are saying that your sin “punishes” (as in crucifixion) Jesus. Have you changed your view since the initial post?

My position seems to be the same. I believe that Christ laid down his life for all of us, and he did so that everyone knew the teaching of Repentance for the forgiveness of sins was indeed a New Covenant/Testament authorized by the Father.

I strongly believe Christ died for us. I strongly believe our sins punish Jesus. But I do not think that the Father ordained the crucifixion to punish one person for the sins of all.

“Why did God abandon Jesus when he was on the cross?” This question was asked in a childhood class, and the reason offered is that at that point Jesus was “covered” by all the sins of mankind and God had turned His back on these sins because God abhors sins.

Years later the question was addressed again, but this time the answer was different. God had not turned his back on Christ at all, Jesus was pointing to Psalm 22, the Psalm of an Innocent Person–where all ends well. In his suffering Jesus was reaching out to encourage those who had remained with him. “Why have you forsaken me?” is no longer tied to God punishing Jesus for sins.

Konssurvative1 · 2019-01-07T14:14:28.620Z

When they get this refresh issue fixed. I’ll use the quote function. I’m tired of typing things twice. If you want to know what someone was responding to…hit the icon in the upper right corner. It shows the other person post.

Meriweather · 2019-01-07T14:58:00.865Z

Konssurvative1:

If you want to know what someone was responding to…hit the icon in the upper right corner. It shows the other person post.

Not for all of us apparently. It always takes me to an entirely different poster/post. I keep Notepad handy. I can type, copy, use the quote function, then paste.

That’s just what works for me and seems to get around all the glitches here. I, too, wish they would do an update to fix that refresh issue.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T16:36:20.929Z

Meriweather:

I believe that Christ laid down his life for all of us, and he did so that everyone knew the teaching of Repentance for the forgiveness of sins was indeed a New Covenant/Testament authorized by the Father.

I strongly believe Christ died for us. I strongly believe our sins punish Jesus. But I do not think that the Father ordained the crucifixion to punish one person for the sins of all.

I found the quote from CS Lewis’ “Mere Christianity” that addresses my take on the specificity of what the Crucifixion was/means/does:

“Of course you can express this in all sorts of different ways. You can say that Christ died for our sins. You may say that the Father has forgiven us because Christ has done for us what we ought to have done. You may say we are washed in the blood of the Lamb. You may say that Christ has defeated death. They are all true. If any of them do not appeal to you, leave it alone and get on with the formula that does. And, whatever you do, do not start quarreling with other people because they use a different formula from yours.”

Meriweather · 2019-01-07T17:15:08.481Z

Guvnah:

I found the quote from CS Lewis’ “Mere Christianity” that addresses my take on the specificity of what the Crucifixion was/means/does:

“Of course you can express this in all sorts of different ways. You can say that Christ died for our sins. You may say that the Father has forgiven us because Christ has done for us what we ought to have done. You may say we are washed in the blood of the Lamb. You may say that Christ has defeated death. They are all true. If any of them do not appeal to you, leave it alone and get on with the formula that does. And, whatever you do, do not start quarreling with other people because they use a different formula from yours.”

That’s beautiful, Guvnah, and very true. I appreciate you posting it here.