Are we, today, responsible for the Crucifixion?

AlexMcAlpine · 2019-01-06T22:54:37.651Z

Konssurvative1:

In essence that is what I was saying. You said it so much better.

Please use the quote function.

Meriweather · 2019-01-06T23:13:17.410Z

Guvnah:

Well, to me, he’s saving us from sin. Our sin. I don’t compartmentalize it.

Spending so much time learning to diagram sentences and dissect things may have had the side effect where I have, over time, began dissecting and examining Christ’s life part by part. Are pieces now is disarray?

Jesus lived a life free of sin. He taught to discern the Father’s will and to follow it. He taught repentance (turning away from sin) and to the Father. He taught that no one comes to him (and to me that meant his teachings as well) unless the Father draws him. Once, there, Jesus sheep listen to his voice and follow his commands.
Following his command to turn away from sin saved me from committing who knows how many sins. Listening/trying to discern the Father’s will placed me on who knows how many paths where sin was also avoided.
In presenting these teachings, Jesus ran afoul of the authorities of his time. They wanted to stop Jesus from teaching and redirect people to offering Temple sacrifices for forgiveness after they sin.
Jesus saw the handwriting on the wall. The authorities were so ticked off they would go to any lengths to stop him. Had his message gotten through, reached enough? Could he cease and return to peaceful carpentry? He thought not. Unless a seed fell to the ground and died, it could not produce fruit. In order for the word to reach me down through the ages, he had to die. Indeed, I have always believed Jesus died for our/my sake–even more than he died for the people of his own time who had had a chance to hear him.
Jesus, instead of a bowl containing cereal, became our sin offering. Whenever I sin, I return to what Jesus taught (Repentance) and discerning and then following the will of the Father.
Confessing sins, asking for forgiveness, making the restitution it is possible for me to make–and then relying on Jesus to fix what I cannot–to me seems to me the punishment (not death on a cross) that Jesus undertakes for me. His punishment is cleaning up my messes. Compare that to his gift to me/us where he lays down his life so that the Word reaches me/us.

As you see, in this dissection/diagram, I cannot find a place (nor could I in Jesus’ own teachings) that the Father had to punish the son. I see it more as my own sins punishing Jesus today because of the work I cause him. That is why I wondered if you saw something in the Gospels and that Jesus taught about punishment being directed at him by the Father that has passed me by.

Konssurvative1 · 2019-01-07T04:41:29.000Z

No.

10 char.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T04:51:07.088Z

DaMan:

I asked you a simple question.

You reworded what I said into something I did not say, and then expected to answer for it.

I don’t take well to that.

DaMan:

If you only want to talk to Christians

And I certainly didn’t say that either.

If you want to have a discussion with me, you’d better figure out quickly that I’m not going to entertain that. From anyone.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T04:54:19.919Z

DaMan:

You dont have to abandon Christianity itself if you do that. How so?

If you toss out the scriptural foundation – the belief that it is the actual Spirit-breathed Word and not just a mere story – then you’ve abandoned the only Truth, and anything else becomes someone else’s concoction.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T04:55:12.049Z

DaMan:

I find it disingenuous to pretend that just because you are Christian that everything you say about christianity is the end all truth

I didn’t say that.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T05:02:24.053Z

DaMan:

See.

Why is it that religious people here always deny what they say?

You are getting on my nerves.

I have explained to you in a subsequent reply directly addressed to you why taking that one sentence out of the context of the rest of the reply (and absent the context I share with the person to whom I was directly addressing in that reply) is a misinterpretation of what I was saying there. You even snipped a tiny piece of that reply to you and misapplied what even that was saying.

To ask what you just asked tells me you’re not really reading anything I’m writing, but just looking for argument and conflict.

I’ll excuse the broadbrush statement about what religious people here ALWAYS do. This time. But it does tell me more about your intentions here.

Like I already said, you’re going to have to change the way you approach discussion with me. I don’t suffer your style well at all.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T05:11:25.450Z

Meriweather:

Jesus, instead of a bowl containing cereal, became our sin offering.

Meriweather:

As you see, in this dissection/diagram, I cannot find a place (nor could I in Jesus’ own teachings) that the Father had to punish the son.

Your first statement answers the second (in the way I see it.) Don’t forget, I earlier completely sidestepped the word “punished”. For one thing, it can mean a ton of different things.

Meriweather:

I see it more as my own sins punishing Jesus today because of the work I cause him.

Jesus died for our sins. If you want to call that punishing him, so be it. I don’t want to get hung up on that word.

But let me challenge you with this question: You initial post challenged the notion that we (you, and I, and everyone else) are responsible for Christ’s crucifixion. Yet now you are saying that your sin “punishes” (as in crucifixion) Jesus. Have you changed your view since the initial post?

AlexMcAlpine · 2019-01-07T06:14:42.240Z

Konssurvative1:

No.

10 char.

Should have expected that response from someone who can’t spell.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:14:11.750Z

Guvnah:

You reworded what I said into something I did not say, and then expected to answer for it.

No. I asked you a question for clarification. Drop the attitude.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:15:06.763Z

Guvnah:

And I certainly didn’t say that either.

No. You passively insinuate it with your statement about atheists “lecturing” you about Christianity. It’s pretty transparent.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:15:39.012Z

Guvnah:

You are getting on my nerves.

Then quit attacking me personally and projecting my motives.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T13:19:29.939Z

DaMan:

Then quit attacking me personally

I didn’t do that.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:19:34.393Z

Guvnah:

If you toss out the scriptural foundation – the belief that it is the actual Spirit-breathed Word and not just a mere story – then you’ve abandoned the only Truth, and anything else becomes someone else’s concoction.

That doesnt explain anything. I asked you WHY. Not to repeat what you said. Much of the bible is man made. Not everyone is a literalist. If all your saying is “if you believe the bible is a man made story and nothing inspired by God” - well no kidding. The sky is blue. I dont think Meri is dumb enough to believe that you can be Christian if all of the bible is man made story.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:19:48.909Z

Guvnah:

I didn’t do that.

Of course you did.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:20:40.649Z

Guvnah:

I’ll excuse the broadbrush statement

You’ve been broadbrushing from the start with your statement about atheists. Jesus taught humility too.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:21:38.921Z

Guvnah:

Like I already said, you’re going to have to change the way you approach discussion with me. I don’t suffer your style well at all.

All I did was ask you a simple question. You rolled your eyes in response. Look in the mirror.

Guvnah · 2019-01-07T13:27:24.575Z

DaMan:

All I did was ask you a simple question.

Rolling my eyes.

DaMan · 2019-01-07T13:28:10.187Z

Guvnah:

Rolling my eyes.

Not very Jesus like…

Meriweather · 2019-01-07T13:45:15.558Z

Guvnah:

But let me challenge you with this question: You initial post challenged the notion that we (you, and I, and everyone else) are responsible for Christ’s crucifixion. Yet now you are saying that your sin “punishes” (as in crucifixion) Jesus. Have you changed your view since the initial post?

My position seems to be the same. I believe that Christ laid down his life for all of us, and he did so that everyone knew the teaching of Repentance for the forgiveness of sins was indeed a New Covenant/Testament authorized by the Father.

I strongly believe Christ died for us. I strongly believe our sins punish Jesus. But I do not think that the Father ordained the crucifixion to punish one person for the sins of all.

“Why did God abandon Jesus when he was on the cross?” This question was asked in a childhood class, and the reason offered is that at that point Jesus was “covered” by all the sins of mankind and God had turned His back on these sins because God abhors sins.

Years later the question was addressed again, but this time the answer was different. God had not turned his back on Christ at all, Jesus was pointing to Psalm 22, the Psalm of an Innocent Person–where all ends well. In his suffering Jesus was reaching out to encourage those who had remained with him. “Why have you forsaken me?” is no longer tied to God punishing Jesus for sins.