Why do you keep bringing religion into this when I have made it clear my approach is from the secular/societal aspect of what is going on in our current time? Why is it so convenient for you to throw religion in as a red herring?
The âoriginal positionâ I have already dismissed that several times as outside the scope of this discussion. Canât you keep up with a different drummer? 
None-the-less, Iâve enjoyed the discussion Supreme_War_Pig. If your original position is where you begin and end, then we have come full circle. Guess no reason to go around again.
Because, as was pointed out to me earlier, this is the religion forum.
Ha, like atheists never stop by a religion forum to discuss things from the atheist point of view. 
Are you telling me you are befuddled by someone in the religion forum discussing an issue from a secular point of view? No worries. There were atheists in the family I was born into and I married an atheist, so I suspect I am more used to it. But tell me, since I am Catholic and my husband is atheist, do we have a Catholic home or an atheist home? And who do you suspect has the more tolerant position on homosexuality?
I am finding it difficult to engage, because I canât find a clear thesis. In a sentence, what is your position here?
Sure, but it is odd to fuss at me for âbringing up religionâ in a religious forum.
As above: can you give me your thesis in a sentence?
As a culture, what should our position be on sexual morality?
What were the purposes of traditional morality? Are some of these purposes still valid? Which are, which are not?
Again, I am not interested in taking the approach of me, of you, of us. I am after objective thoughts. I have never dismissed ancient man as a bunch of ignorant idiotsâtoo much wisdom there, too much creativity. Therefore, why not understand the reasoning behind what built our culture and if now may be a good time to move the boundariesâor decide on no boundaries at all.
We already discussed disease, no antibiotics then, we have them now. That particular problem may have been resolved. We discussed population troubles. They were under populated, we are now over populated, so another problem resolved? Seems so.
I will offer another of our ancient ancestorsâ observations: Lack of self discipline, shown especially in lack of sexual discipline, weakened tribes and nations, or perhaps more accurately, a sign portending their weakening.
My fussing isnât about you bringing up religion. Itâs about you assigning religion to my position when I stated it was not. If religion is your own position, not an issue, but donât make it mine.
Yeah, youâre right. We are done here.
I am always right. Just takes a second or two to catch up with me.
Yes. God made commandments. They were not suggestions. I can be kind to anyone, & believe God expects me to. That does not mean I can just ignore His commandments. I have many times worked for gay people, & have 2 gay nephews. I donât treat them with disrespect or unkindness. That doesnât mean I wonât tell them the truth if they ask me about homosexuality & God, I would not be kind to them if I did.
My nephews know I love them, & also know what I believe.
I take a bit different tact. I encourage their own research. What disease and possibly psychological issues may come into play? I recommend studies that have been done in countries that have no stigma of homosexuality in that society. Also, what will they gain personally; what might they possibly have to give up.
I tell them other people on either side of the issue have no right to encourage or discourage them in either direction. People who are not homosexual should not offer advice because often those who do have their own agenda, whether it be wanting to be known as modern and open-minded, or for religious beliefs. However, if they are a person of faith, Godâs will for them, not their own should also be given serious consideration. I trust in prayer, in God, and guidance of the Holy Spirit. And I trust in the intelligence of the people involved.
There is so much in this world, I do not understand. Since this thread is on being gayâŚwhat causes that? I think thereâs two answers; genetics and environment. The genetic quotient varies in each and so do the paths each of us have walked in this life. I donât think homosexuality is the right choice but, how much is a choice? AgainâŚI donât know. That said, I witness the sadness and the greater tendency towards suicide and know that I do not want to add on to this and in anyway increase this sadness.
Iâm not here to judge, I have enough problems judging my own path but I also must decide what it is I stand for and itâs the undefiled love between a man and a woman, honoring their sacred vows and lovingly guiding those theyâve brought into this world, into adulthood, armed with the tools theyâll need to carry on to their death.
This is why I keep an eye on studies out of Scandinavia where homosexuality has been accepted for decades. Suicide rates were still higher than among the general population. With the advent of same sex marriage, the hope was suicide rates would decrease. This study involves only those who were in same sex marriage. It appears that homosexuals in same sex marriages have a lower rate of suicide than what is in the general population of homosexuals. However, when compared to the rate of suicides in opposite sex marriages, the rate of suicide is same sex marriage is still greater.
Homosexuals (as a whole) have shorter lifespans.
The reason I keep an eye on these statistics is how can we, as a society, encourage homosexual relationships knowing it may shorten life spans and cause psychological issues that may lead to suicideâeven when homosexuality is accepted throughout a society?
I know there are people who are convinced the Bible labeled homosexuality as a sin simply because they were an ignorant group of superstitious homophobic people, but I see our ancient ancestors much differently. I see the Commandments as guides to living a happier, healthier life. This holds true whether one believes Commandments came straight from the mouth of God or were âman madeâ.
My hypothesis is that ancient man observed the same thing back then that studies show us today: Shorter lifespan, higher rate of suicide among homosexuals. Recommendation: Avoid same sex relationships. It is a Commandment rooted in caring, not in condemnation.
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Sociobiology
Inclusive Fitness hypothesis
Kin Selection
and other Evolutionary theories seeking the cause and PURPOSE of homosexuality.
Maladaptive behaviors in evolution and propagation of a species.
All still debated by âscience.â
It is not all about âmorality.â. or obedience to rules of behavior.
Religiously, I see it differently than just following commandments.
One cannot bargain with Karma. People can be very fickle about their rebirth. The confines of male and female of human beings and the spectrum of sexuality, has more to do with the mind than science grasps.
Add in the Rebirth factor to cause and effect and then think about the propensity for fickleness and indecisiveness by people and the FACT of rebirth as either male or female, depending on accumulated desire or sexual preference.
Think how foolish people can be on the mundane level in their current lifetimeânow think how FOOLISH people can be considering their mind/soul transmigrating through infinite lifetimes even as lower creatures.
When people have such ignorance of how the mechanics of multiple Lifetimes work, the idea of someone wishing to be the opposite sex, who was just previously wishing in their inner mind, they would be reborn as the same sex they currently are and immediately want to change to the opposite sex.
Fickleness anyone?
Inner desire is complex and habit patterns create the causal steps
The âPandakasââthe " 5 types of Unmanly Men"
Better adjusted? I dunno, but they are seeking help.
Anyone have any statistics on whether, since same sex marriage is legal in all 50, mental health & sense of belonging has increased among GLBTQ+ individuals?
I remember hearing it had not in the Netherlands, where same sex marriage has been legal for awhile.
Thereâs the suicide by cop of this individual:
I donât believe coming out as non-binary with they/them pronouns & being active in Rainbow Pride group on campus helped him.
What is this âhomophobeâ? Seems thatâs a name applied to everyone who questions the Rainbow Pride movement.
Most human beings have moved past the point where who takes home sort of partner is something of concern, if both parties are adults & want to he together.
The idea that LGBTQ face higher rates of depression & suicide due to some innate nature of being LGBTQ isnât supported by anything. Hispanics face much higher rates of depression than whites. Should whites then avoid relationships with hispanics? Should we discourage âbeing hispanicâ?
The fact is, as much as same sex marriage is accepted by law, just as inter racial marriage is, there are still pockets of society and environments that bully, attempt to supress or attack those in the LGBTQ community, both physically and emotionally. Especially in younger teens, young adults.
The mode of action shouldnât be blaming those who are LGBTQ and discourage their innate being. We as a society have not accepted or communicated this acceptance enough, and as long as we still have pockets of hate and bigotry in our society, especially among the religious, there will continue to be skews of mental illness in the LGBTQ community
For example, why arenât those blaming LGBTQ for higher rates of suicide asking WHY?
Are they more suicidal just because âtheyâre gayâ?
Or is there something more complicated going on both culturally and at a societal level that isnât really directly tied to sexual orientation?
The reason I look at Scandinavian studies is because differing sexual orientations have long been accepted in that region. It is worth noting that suicide rates and shorter lifespans are higher, but it certainly does not speak for every situationâwhich also needs to be taken into account.
The point is that well meaning Hollywood and elementary school teachers and activists should leave the issue alone. None of us should be cheering on youngsters. A wait and see attitude until closer to adulthood, and then a quiet acceptance of decisions people look into and then make on their own should more than suffice.
For those who look to the Bible for guidance, if they take the perspective God (or ancient law) offered was from caring what is best for most, modern people can stop worrying about being condemned to hell. It appears the worst they can be condemned to is perhaps a shorter lifespan. Also, a heads up that at beginning signs of depression, seek out medical help. Others have been there before you and have made it through with help.
Just because something is âregionallyâ accepted doesnât mean there still canât be a general element in society that generates anxiety and depression as a result of environmental pressures TOWARDS LGBTQ.
Also, what are these studies you are referring to? A quick Google from me shows decreases of suicide and mental illness since gay marriage has been legalized:
This is precisely the attiude that continues to feed anxiety and depression in LGBTQ. They arenât depressed and anxious because they are gay. Itâs because they feel shame and people say things like âjust wait and seeâ and they should be left âaloneâ. And to âquietlyâ accept them. Itâs completely ridiculuous to both recognize the mental health struggles and then continue to deny that homosexuality is an inherent, natural and completely acceptable orientation, and then in the same breathe act like we shouldnât attempt to communicate our acceptance more LOUDLY to young people who are disproportionatly affected by mental illness.
They arenât depressed because they are gay. They donât have shorter lifespans because they are gay. Itâs a complicated sociological issue.
Just like how hispanics arenât more prone to depression than whites just because they are hispanic. Or just like how blacks arenât more prone to single parent households just because they are black.
Itâs sociological.
Blaming homosexuality is a lazy way of avoiding the real issues.
