A quiet blow against private prisons

DMK · 2020-02-18T01:55:08.263Z

Safiel:

First of all, these 52 inmates are pretrial detainees, not convicts. It is possible that some may ultimately be acquitted at trial.

Agreed.

Safiel:

And not even a convicted person should face physical harm from gang violence, particularly somebody whose offense was non-violent.

I would suggest prison isn’t and shouldn’t be a cake walk.

Why is there gang violence in prisons?

Safiel · 2020-02-18T02:02:06.648Z

DMK:

Safiel:

First of all, these 52 inmates are pretrial detainees, not convicts. It is possible that some may ultimately be acquitted at trial.

Agreed.

Safiel:

And not even a convicted person should face physical harm from gang violence, particularly somebody whose offense was non-violent.

I would suggest prison isn’t and shouldn’t be a cake walk.

Why is there gang violence in prisons?

I am NOT advocating prison should be a cake walk, not by a long shot.

But non-violent, non-sexual prisoners should have an expectation that they will not be exposed to violent or sexual inmates.

The United States Bureau of Prisons does that by segregating prisoners by many factors. If your offense is non-violent or non-sexual, you will not be housed with violent or sexual offenders.

And if your a member of the Crips Gang, you are not going to be housed by yourself in a wing full of Bloods. They mix them up so that no one gang becomes ascendant and violent inmates at least know they have their fellow inmates watching their back.

And even among violent offenders, there must be segregation. The guy that committed a road rage assault shouldn’t be housed with career gang members.

An inmate should expect to survive their sentence without having a knife thrust in them.

PurpnGold · 2020-02-18T02:06:20.991Z

DMK:

I have no issue with private prisons.

Crazy talk.

Why should incarcerating humans be a for profit business that tries to maximize shareholder value?

I don’t care what the criminals did… having a business model that depends on number of prisoners is ridiculous. It makes it so that these private prisons are lobbying for more punitive laws.

DMK · 2020-02-18T02:09:31.581Z

Safiel:

I am NOT advocating prison should be a cake walk, not by a long shot.

But

Safiel:

But non-violent, non-sexual prisoners should have an expectation that they will not be exposed to violent or sexual inmates.

Why should they have that expectation?

Safiel:

And if your a member of the Crips Gang, you are not going to be housed by yourself in a wing full of Bloods. They mix them up so that no one gang becomes ascendant and violent inmates at least know they have their fellow inmates watching their back.

Sure, they mix them up. What good does that do?

Safiel:

And even among violent offenders, there must be segregation. The guy that committed a road rage assault shouldn’t be housed with career gang members

Why? Is a road rage incident that leads to the death of someone less or worse than a gang member who causes the death of someone?

Safiel:

An inmate should expect to survive their sentence without having a knife thrust in them

I completely agree with that.

DMK · 2020-02-18T02:14:05.880Z

PurpnGold:

Crazy talk.

Why should incarcerating humans be a for profit business that tries to maximize shareholder value?

I guess you posted before you actually read.

DMK:

There is a hell of a lot wrong with private prisons, Safiel, because they keep getting paid to keep people incarcerated.

Now, switch that around.

If they were paid bonuses on rate of recidivism?

PurpnGold:

I don’t care what the criminals did…

Good for you.

Guilds · 2020-02-18T02:17:08.468Z

DMK:

Quite frankly, if their lives are miserable the better the incentive to not break the law.

Well, when it comes to recidivism rates, we are the best…I mean worst in the world.

USA USA!!

DMK · 2020-02-18T02:23:37.320Z

Guilds:

Well, when it comes to recidivism rates, we are the best…I mean worst in the world.

USA USA!!

If a private prison were to be paid on rate of recidivism vs. retaining prisoners? Being private enterprise, I guarantee if there were profit to be made? They would be teaching trades, following up on them and making damn sure the cost of doing so was less than a financial ding for being reincarcerated.

Guilds · 2020-02-18T02:45:24.941Z

DMK:

If a private prison were to be paid on rate of recidivism vs. retaining prisoners? Being private enterprise, I guarantee if there were profit to be made? They would be teaching trades, following up on them and making damn sure the cost of doing so was less than a financial ding for being reincarcerated.

Sounds like a great plan. Would be great to actually happen.

DMK · 2020-02-18T02:46:23.221Z

Guilds:

Sounds like a great plan. Would be great to actually happen.

I think so as well.

mobulis · 2020-02-18T02:48:03.122Z

DMK:

Safiel:

I am NOT advocating prison should be a cake walk, not by a long shot.

But

Safiel:

But non-violent, non-sexual prisoners should have an expectation that they will not be exposed to violent or sexual inmates.

Why should they have that expectation?

Safiel:

And if your a member of the Crips Gang, you are not going to be housed by yourself in a wing full of Bloods. They mix them up so that no one gang becomes ascendant and violent inmates at least know they have their fellow inmates watching their back.

Sure, they mix them up. What good does that do?

Safiel:

And even among violent offenders, there must be segregation. The guy that committed a road rage assault shouldn’t be housed with career gang members

Why? Is a road rage incident that leads to the death of someone less or worse than a gang member who causes the death of someone?

Safiel:

An inmate should expect to survive their sentence without having a knife thrust in them

I completely agree with that.

Less.

DMK · 2020-02-18T02:51:02.820Z

mobulis:

Less.

The death of a loved one via road rage or gang is still a life lost.

I’m sorry you see degrees of life lost via circumstances that surround it.

SottoVoce · 2020-02-18T02:51:26.233Z

Good. See the less-than-honorable judges Michael Conahan and Mark Ciaverella for two good reasons for-profit prisons shouldn’t exist.

Guilds · 2020-02-18T02:52:15.446Z

DMK:

I think so as well.

Prisoners would need to be treated as humans, that made mistakes, vs caged animals.
Also, the prison personnel would need to be properly trained.

Not sure if there would be enough of a profit motive, for a company to attempt.

Safiel · 2020-02-18T03:38:52.051Z

DMK:

Safiel:

But non-violent, non-sexual prisoners should have an expectation that they will not be exposed to violent or sexual inmates.

Why should they have that expectation?

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

They have more than an expectation, they have a RIGHT to humane treatment by virtue of Amendment 8 to the Constitution. Prison cannot be such a brutal experience as to constitute cruel and unusual punishment, even if that cruel and unusual punishment is inflicted by neglect, rather than design.

Silverdale Jail is clearly not meeting even the minimum standards.

SixFoot · 2020-02-18T04:19:30.943Z

Imprisonment is the punishment. Physical/sexual assault, is not OK, even when it happens to criminals.

armycowboy · 2020-02-18T04:28:11.352Z

SixFoot:

Imprisonment is the punishment. Physical/sexual assault, is not OK, even when it happens to criminals.

Well stated. Where I live we have a private prison and one run by the county. The private prison pays guards $10/hr while the county prison pays guards $16.98/hr. Where do you think more prison violence/gang activity occurs? Time to get rid of private prisons.

westaussie · 2020-02-18T06:10:35.638Z

We are rarely on the same side. However, on this we are. In my opinion all prisons should be government owned and run.

Ceasar · 2020-02-18T06:16:42.254Z

PurpnGold:

I wish we could get rid of for-profit prisons all together.

I agree. Most things government does I prefer the private sector do, even doing public works, but this is one thing I think is the job of the government. I think the incentives to put more & more people in jail for profit is too great & I think leads to abuse. There is too many people in jail anyway. I think there is better ways to deal with some crimes, & some crimes shouldn’t be crimes.

PurpnGold · 2020-02-18T06:50:23.051Z

Ceasar:

I agree. Most things government does I prefer the private sector do, even doing public works, but this is one thing I think is the job of the government. I think the incentives to put more & more people in jail for profit is too great & I think leads to abuse. There is too many people in jail anyway. I think there is better ways to deal with some crimes, & some crimes shouldn’t be crimes.

Said perfectly. We finally agree on something

mobulis · 2020-02-18T08:50:54.662Z

DMK:

mobulis:

Less.

The death of a loved one via road rage or gang is still a life lost.

I’m sorry you see degrees of life lost via circumstances that surround it.

Would you rather die peacefully or tortured to death?